Fowler Stuff (now with p5 Manzella Answers)

[Dariusz J.]

Darius, don't you have some kids to chase off of your lawn?
Seriously, though, this is 2012. We are seeing the very best golfers in the world dismantling 7600 yard golf courses with greens running 12-13 stimp. If Hogan were playing today, he would need to adapt to today's game. Every game, from golf to ice hockey, has seen incredible changes from 50 years ago. Its called progress and I suggest you get on board.

You miss two very crucial things. First, nothing spectacular changed in ice hockey; the conditions are the same, the ice is the same, the goals of the same dimensions, etc. In golf, they changed a lot to make it a game of power at the expense of accuracy -- hence changes in swings. It is a regress, not progress in my world.
Of course, Hogan must have adapted and he obviously would sacrifice some of his accuracy for additional length if situation calls for. He was no stupid.
Secondly, what is the factor majority of golfers need ? Consistency or length ? For length everyone can have his own tees -- what's the point of using the same tees as competitive golfers ? From my observations, they need consistency and repeatability first of all. So that they can avoid fat shots, shanks, horrible pulls, slices, duck hooks, thin shots, etc.
They need to eliminate OB shots and lost balls -- they are score wreckers and pleasure-takers -- not 200 meters drives instead 250 ones. IMHO.

Cheers

 

[bcoak]

You miss two very crucial things. First, nothing spectacular changed in ice hockey; the conditions are the same, the ice is the same, the goals of the same dimensions, etc. In golf, they changed a lot to make it a game of power at the expense of accuracy -- hence changes in swings. It is a regress, not progress in my world.
Of course, Hogan must have adapted and he obviously would sacrifice some of his accuracy for additional length if situation calls for. He was no stupid.
Secondly, what is the factor majority of golfers need ? Consistency or length ? For length everyone can have his own tees -- what's the point of using the same tees as competitive golfers ? From my observations, they need consistency and repeatability first of all. So that they can avoid fat shots, shanks, horrible pulls, slices, duck hooks, thin shots, etc.
They need to eliminate OB shots and lost balls -- they are score wreckers and pleasure-takers -- not 200 meters drives instead 250 ones. IMHO.

Cheers

A ton has changed in hockey. Protection is better and lighter, skates are lighter. composite sticks, new conditioning. Hockey does not even come close to resembling the game 30 years ago

 

[puttmaster]

For those just now joining us on Page 9, here's the CliffsNotes summary of this thread (in case you need ideas for your next practice range session):

Rickie Fowler > pivot stall > armsy goat humper > crossover release > rate of clubface closure > wait for it ... Hogan > Furyk > ice hockey

By page 15, we should be adding "world peace," but it still won't change the fact that Fowler played some awesome golf this weekend.

 

[dschultz6072]

This thread is retarded.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

This thread is retarded.

Best post of the thread after since brian's on page 1

 

[bluebird]

Noone wants to change Fowler's swing. I just think bringing him as a general model for golfers of all sort is pointless and dangerous (unless there are specific microscale cases) because the vast majority of people neither have so much time to spend to practice nor talent to deal with timing issues.

Cheers

Dariusz J


Can we talk about this timing that is being discussed? For those that use their pivot to close their open clubface there would be some timing involved with that swing, and those that close their clubface in the roll-over release certainly use some timing also. Both of these are using different pivots that need to be timed. But both are timing in the Gamma ( twisting ) direction, correct? I'm wandering also about in the Alpha and Beta planes. What about those that only have to time the Alpha rotation?


John

 

[OLIVER1]

For those just now joining us on Page 9, here's the CliffsNotes summary of this thread (in case you need ideas for your next practice range session):

Rickie Fowler > pivot stall > armsy goat humper > crossover release > rate of clubface closure > wait for it ... Hogan > Furyk > ice hockey

By page 15, we should be adding "world peace," but it still won't change the fact that Fowler played some awesome golf this weekend.

I certainly don't advocate threadjacking, especially when there's really important stuff as a thread-leader crops up, but you have to allow yourself a giggle every once in a while at the surrealness of it all. Maybe my sense of humour is a little silly, but I see a thread started - assorted people chime in somewhere on topic - Dariusz sashays his way onto the dance floor with the best of intentions but soon gives us the old Ben Hogan two-step - Brian interjects with his musings, exasperation dripping from every stroke of his keyboard - MikeGranato slips a few funnies into the fray but with the express purpose of dragging the thread back on topic - Lia puts together some amazing pictures in a desperate attempt to inject some normalcy into the proceedings - SteveT sits in the bleachers, hurling barely-disguised insults at all and sundry - BirlyShirly and Leon raise a few eyebrows - Lindsay bangs out some classic "Snatch" quotes - I fall on the floor laughing and follow suit - Kevin's and ekennedy's quality commentaries get lost in the mix - more decent stuff from assorted people - repeat as above in a different order - thread gets locked.
Now, as I pointed out, my sense of humour might be a little wanky, but why WOULDN'T you want to stick around for those laughs - as long as we can still get some real good stuff done? Everyone on this forum, incl. those I've mentioned have brought great stuff to the table...long may it continue
*Apologies to those members I've missed out!!

 

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz J


Can we talk about this timing that is being discussed? For those that use their pivot to close their open clubface there would be some timing involved with that swing, and those that close their clubface in the roll-over release certainly use some timing also. Both of these are using different pivots that need to be timed. But both are timing in the Gamma ( twisting ) direction, correct? I'm wandering also about in the Alpha and Beta planes. What about those that only have to time the Alpha rotation?


John

That's a very good question. The answer lies in anatomy and specifically in writing scenarios of various possibilities of limiting RoM of joints in the chain. If you observe a crossover release players you will see that they have practically no connection between humera and the pivoting body. It means they use full RoM of all joints that govern the movement of arms and, consequently, the clubhead. Tprques created are much easier to be created and much tougher to be released on time.
Players like Hogan or Furyk limit RoM of shoulder and elbow joints until when the ball is gone because of tieing humera to the pivoting body. In order to achieve it they need a great pivot because they require lead arm straightish accross the chest and rear arm bent in elbow -- which position is only achieveable with a open hips and torso at impact. These are like LEGO pieces.
Now, the pivot must be also timed which is true, however, it is much easier to time a movement of the body closer to the axis of movement and much harder to time more distal parts (it's a simple physic rule). Pivot-subdued swings occur from the core out which means they are easy to time.

Do this experiment -- keeping a pencil in both hands try to draw 10-centimeter lines on the wall with extended arms via their movement trying as much as possible to replace line on the same place. Then bend both arms in elbow, tie your humera to the body and try to draw these lines via body rotation. You will find that in the latter case lines are drawn in a much more consistent way. Hope this will be selfexplanatory addendum to your question.

Cheers

 

[bluebird]

Dariusz J

If Fowler is stalling his hips which leads to less timing then his timed parts must be more distal. Do you think he closes the clubface then opens it, or opens it then closes it? Or what exactly does he time that is bad?

John

 

[Lifter]

Where does "swinging left" fit into all this? I'm reminded of this old comment by Brian:

http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfin...bis-swing-many-other-things-7.html#post187486

The Straight Ball is Easier. There, I said it.

A ZERO RESULTANT PATH on shots off of the ground REQUIRES a swing direction—plane line—base line—HSP. to the left.

The Left.

You HAVE TO SWING TO THE LEFT OF THE TARGET to hit straight shots off of the ground.

That means—by default—that DURING THE SWING, the CLUBFACE HAS TO be less closed TO THE SWING than a "push draw" golfer.

Surely, the "push drawers" can have a strong grip or something else that gets THEIR REQUIRED MORE CLOSED TO THE SWING DIRECTION CLUBFACE more closed. SOmething besides "hand action."

But, to keep hitting these "push draws" right at the target, they have to have DIFFERENT AMOUNTS OF CLOSED TO THE PATH—and closed to the plane!!—throughout the progression from wedge to 3-wood.

So, I think, for most golfers, the STRAIGHT BALL IS EASIER TO DO.

Just have the face SQUARE at impact, and swing left the correct amount.

Period.

This REQUIRES A CLUBFACE that is OPEN TO THE PLANE at impact.

Which for most is LESS "hand action."

Have a nice day.​

 

[bluebird]

Yea I agree 100%, but am trying to understand what D has against RF's timing.

John

 

[Kevin Shields]

Lifter, what do you mean by "where does swinging left fit into this?". Fowler plays a draw.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Now, everyone go out, draw your left arm across your chest. When you start down keep it pinned against your chest past the ball. No arm swing, no flipping nothing but that lead arm pinned against your chest with body rotary movement.

This will allow you to........HIT IT NOWHERE, but you may find some repeatability in there and some pivot driven automation.

Why did hogan have to weaken the fu..k out of his grip?

BECAUSE HE HAD A HIGH RATE OF CLOSURE

Does anyone think for one second that the act of pronating (backsing) THEN supinating THEN pronating (on the downsing) in a golfswings does not take timing?

Dariusz, Hogan had more timing going on than a Rolex.

But I am fine with your repeated outbursts Because ......."you're a ruthless little €#nt, Liam, I'll give you that"

 

[OLIVER1]

But I am fine with your repeated outbursts Because ......."you're a ruthless little €#nt, Liam, I'll give you that"

I must admit, with his pencil exercise Dariusz lost me there, which is surprising "'cos I ain't a set of fackin' car keys..."

 

[Lifter]

Lifter, what do you mean by "where does swinging left fit into this?". Fowler plays a draw.

Doesn't that imply that Rickie's impact isn't as consistent as, say, Sergio's or Furyk's?

 

[Brian Manzella]

More face rotation means LESS HOOK SPIN!!!

You like apples?

 

[Kevin Shields]

Doesn't that imply that Rickie's impact isn't as consistent as, say, Sergio's or Furyk's?

Why would that be? Sergio plays a draw as well.

 

[art]

Art, I have been dealing with a herniated L4/5 and related spinal stenosis. It has wreaked havoc on my golf swing, as my pivot is so wildly inconsistent that I can see changes in 2-d and would be frightened to see what 3-D looks like (I was on Mike Jacobs AMM system last year) after only 40-50 balls on the range. Cortisone, PT, and 1.1gm of Naproxen have at least made the issue bearable, but the lingering subconscious effects, along with the very poor condition of the associated "core musculature" still leaves me with a very inconsistent swing. Any suggestions on swing techniques or exercise programs that might be effective. I realize this is a very complicated and involved question, but any random thoughts you might have would be greatly appreciated.

Dear TROYNYGOLFER,

I do have a swing style suggestion, and presently am involved with a research study in a major national clinic, assessing the relationship of golf swing styles on potential lower back injury. The hypothesis going in is that a more rotary swing WITH LOWER AND UPPER BODY DYNAMIC STABILITY should very significantly reduce the 'crunch factor', and more importantly, the 'integrated dynamic crunch factor' which at least attempts to address the 'cumulative' stresses in a single swing, not just the peak.

In addition to the '(1) Bumpy Back, keep it Back, (2) keep your back towards the target longer and (3) back swing 'release' take away I have previously written about, just aim your tail bone (coccyx) straight down, or if possible, towards your right foot, either of which will encourage you to almost rotate exclusively around your left hip, and have the secondary advantage of keeping your weight forward, maybe even 60-40, forward foot-rear foot (definitely not 80-20 for the back swing as is normally suggested).

Certainly, take a bunch of lower energy practice swings without a ball, developing the new feeling AND DEVELOPING ADDITIONAL LOWER BODY DYNAMIC BALANCE that should significantly reduce the stresses in the lower back.

As background, when I started on this golf truth journey in 2007, I very much wanted to be 'on the train' playing golf, not just studying and researching but as you will read below, I had a very damaged back which constrained me to the desk, not the golf course. Now, however, I am happy to say, I AM PRACTICING, PLAYING, and more importantly, testing every research characteristic I have and will write about on this informative site,

I am 6 ft 2, 230 pounds, and 78 years 'young' thank God, and seem to have followed the same injury path as you and 'welshdentist', but probably a different recovery path. On record, I have Severe Spinal Stenosis (SSS), and Degenerative Disc Disease (DDD),

I am now dedicated to a 'sport' chiropractor, who has treated professional athletes from all sports here in Southern California. My association with the medical profession, after a 6 foot fall onto concrete breaking my left wrist, elbow, and severely torquing my left hip and pelvis. They fixed the broken parts, but due to my negligence, I waited 5 years (2002-2007) to find out what happened to the pelvis and hip. By then, the only proposed solution was a series of 'epidurals' for pain relief, but eventually lumbar fusion which I at that time rejected in favor of physical therapy.

That decision limped me thru November 2011, when I decided to take the advice of an athletic son, and give the sports-specific chiropractic opportunity a chance.

The full body, weight bearing x-rays were all THIS PSEUDO SCIENTIST needed to see what was wrong, and give this a try. I am , and since November, have been pain free, with significantly increased ranges of motion for all my spinal-related joints and body elements.

NO, NOT MEANT TO BE A COMMERCIAL, but I believe the 'mostly rotary' swing style the science led me to during 2007-2012, in harmony with the physical therapy, and more recently the active manipulation of some very golf-specific parts of the body has, and will continue to serve me well for the future of this now 'seeking and playing' pursuit of golf truth. If right for you, I hope it works as well.

Sincerely,
art

 

[spktho]

I am now dedicated to a 'sport' chiropractor, who has treated professional athletes from all sports here in Southern California.
That decision limped me thru November 2011, when I decided to take the advice of an athletic son, and give the sports-specific chiropractic opportunity a chance.

The full body, weight bearing x-rays were all THIS PSEUDO SCIENTIST needed to see what was wrong, and give this a try. I am , and since November, have been pain free, with significantly increased ranges of motion for all my spinal-related joints and body elements.

Sincerely,
art

Nice to see a happy customer benefiting from the profession I originally chose to pursue. Unfortunately, it is a very physical and repetitive motion profession which my body could not handle after 10 years of full time practicing. So, "doctor heal thyself" became "find another profession" for me. I still keep my license current and work with file reviews to help pay for malpractice insurance as well as a few loyal patients, but I do miss the success stories as you have described.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz J

If Fowler is stalling his hips which leads to less timing then his timed parts must be more distal. Do you think he closes the clubface then opens it, or opens it then closes it? Or what exactly does he time that is bad?

John

The rule of thumb is -- the earlier everything counted from the ground up stalls the earlier distal parts are being thrown away from the core because of physical forces. Please note how much earlier Fowler throws his arms comparing to pivot-guided swings. You can bet hundreds of dollars that the more open is one's body at impact the less arms are thrown away (Moe not counting for obvious reasons).

Now, everyone go out, draw your left arm across your chest. When you start down keep it pinned against your chest past the ball. No arm swing, no flipping nothing but that lead arm pinned against your chest with body rotary movement.

This will allow you to........HIT IT NOWHERE, but you may find some repeatability in there and some pivot driven automation.

Where did I say that humera should be tied to pivoting body all the time ? They should be as early as possible after transition to as late as possible after impact. This is BTW a pretty good characterization of Hogan's thoughts and actions.

Does anyone think for one second that the act of pronating (backsing) THEN supinating THEN pronating (on the downsing) in a golfswings does not take timing?

Dariusz, Hogan had more timing going on than a Rolex.

No. He did not need to time a lot since he set his humerus/elbow after transition. Gravity plus other forces took care about supination itself. Do you have any idea what is the RoM of pronation/supination with extended arm compared to bent in elbow ? If you don't you should think about it and learn something useful.
What he did with his grip was just a microscale adjustment for a chronic hooker. I do not care about hookers only, I think in big picture.

I must admit, with his pencil exercise Dariusz lost me there, which is surprising "'cos I ain't a set of fackin' car keys..."

What part is not understandeable ? I'll do my best to describe it with other words.

Cheers