Fowler Stuff (now with p5 Manzella Answers)
- Thread starter Brian Manzella
- Start date
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Ball Striking Stats
They spoke about his ball striking stats yesterday, so this comment caught me off guard:
He is 11th on tour in Ball Striking this year which is Total Driving (5) and GIR Rank combined (29); 64.75% Driving Accuracy, 67.75% GIR.
Seems like he found it to me. You are suggesting that his release is more timing dependent than is optimal, so this type of ball striking will be short lived?
They spoke about his ball striking stats yesterday, so this comment caught me off guard:
He is 11th on tour in Ball Striking this year which is Total Driving (5) and GIR Rank combined (29); 64.75% Driving Accuracy, 67.75% GIR.
Seems like he found it to me. You are suggesting that his release is more timing dependent than is optimal, so this type of ball striking will be short lived?
welshdentist
New
Fowler would be selling drinks and balls at a range if he didn't do what he does and tried to swing like Hogan. It's the modern swing for lightweight equipment that he uses....
To be fair, Furyk hits it straight but nowhere, if he was that straight and long enough he would win every week.
It's a new game, with new equipment....
If Hogan was playing on tour today he would be swinging the same way Fowler is...
Hogan had to swing that way to optimise contact/distance as the gear was so hard to hit....if you weren't precise you were in the rough or missed the green. Modern guys have grown up with gear that doesn't need as precise a center contact, with a low spin ball which means they can swing faster....
The sweetspot was TINY back then compared to modern gear.
I have a set or persimmons and spalding blades that I use from time to time....but it was gear that used a spinny ball and is a long gone era.
Hogan was the best ballstriker with that equipment (Moe Norman maybe better) but today's modern game is to bomb it through the air and have a great short game and putt 10 million times better than Hogan ever did....
I actually think if Ben Hogan grew up with todays equipment he would swing like the modern players and still win like he did....it was him, and his work ethic that did it, not his 'swing'
He was optimised for old equipment and probably couldn't even hit a modern driver...you cannot compare it the large heads and graphite shafts.
With modern gear, maybe "pivot goat humping stalling" is the way to go?
Should Bubba and Ricky try to swing like Hogan?
Or should they keep doing what they are doing instead of mini tour/club pro/amateur events but releasing it "the old fashioned way" and striking it pure, low and nowhere...
Modern greens are hard and firm, they need trajectory not spin to hold them.
I think Darius is right in the respect and the modern swing would be terrible for persimmon and mini blades and a balata ball.....
But the equipment bus has long left and the guys who are "The best players in the WORLD" are doing whats best to win with the modern gear...
There is no right or wrong.....it's apples and oranges....different era's and swings....
Old way (for me this means Hogan optimised pivot controlled release, downward hit) was precise but hit it nowhere and low in modern terms........unless you were an exceptional athlete (Ben Hogan, Snead, Nicklaus).
It sounded and looked awesome, but it's not where golf is now. I grew up with a blade and balata and hit spinny downward wedges that looked great with a balata. Does it mean it's wrong to use the bounce and hit a low spin, high trajectory short game shot? Nope, it's just how the game has moved with the modern ball. I'm happy to be labelled a flipper hitting it close all day long....than to watch a guy with a flat left wrist try to spin a modern ball enough to stop it...
I'm really not trying to have a go at anyone. Rickie would hit it terrible with that swing and old gear, but would adapt to it given time.
It's getting a bit boring the whole Hogan was the only person who did it right thing...
He was amazing with that gear and ball....truly amazing
But with Hogan's swing, would he hit as many greens as fairways with modern gear? And the same swing?
He's likely fresh air the first swing with a modern driver....
Far too long a post but I think it sums up what a lot of people are thinking....
Swing like Hogan for blades, wood and balata....
If ya wanna play modern course and equipment.....bomb it like Bubba....
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Fowler would be selling drinks and balls at a range if he didn't do what he does and tried to swing like Hogan. It's the modern swing for lightweight equipment that he uses....
To be fair, Furyk hits it straight but nowhere, if he was that straight and long enough he would win every week.
It's a new game, with new equipment....
If Hogan was playing on tour today he would be swinging the same way Fowler is...
Hogan had to swing that way to optimise contact/distance as the gear was so hard to hit....if you weren't precise you were in the rough or missed the green. Modern guys have grown up with gear that doesn't need as precise a center contact, with a low spin ball which means they can swing faster....
The sweetspot was TINY back then compared to modern gear.
I have a set or persimmons and spalding blades that I use from time to time....but it was gear that used a spinny ball and is a long gone era.
Hogan was the best ballstriker with that equipment (Moe Norman maybe better) but today's modern game is to bomb it through the air and have a great short game and putt 10 million times better than Hogan ever did....
I actually think if Ben Hogan grew up with todays equipment he would swing like the modern players and still win like he did....it was him, and his work ethic that did it, not his 'swing'
He was optimised for old equipment and probably couldn't even hit a modern driver...you cannot compare it the large heads and graphite shafts.
With modern gear, maybe "pivot goat humping stalling" is the way to go?
Should Bubba and Ricky try to swing like Hogan?
Or should they keep doing what they are doing instead of mini tour/club pro/amateur events but releasing it "the old fashioned way" and striking it pure, low and nowhere...
Modern greens are hard and firm, they need trajectory not spin to hold them.
I think Darius is right in the respect and the modern swing would be terrible for persimmon and mini blades and a balata ball.....
But the equipment bus has long left and the guys who are "The best players in the WORLD" are doing whats best to win with the modern gear...
There is no right or wrong.....it's apples and oranges....different era's and swings....
Old way (for me this means Hogan optimised pivot controlled release, downward hit) was precise but hit it nowhere and low in modern terms........unless you were an exceptional athlete (Ben Hogan, Snead, Nicklaus).
It sounded and looked awesome, but it's not where golf is now. I grew up with a blade and balata and hit spinny downward wedges that looked great with a balata. Does it mean it's wrong to use the bounce and hit a low spin, high trajectory short game shot? Nope, it's just how the game has moved with the modern ball. I'm happy to be labelled a flipper hitting it close all day long....than to watch a guy with a flat left wrist try to spin a modern ball enough to stop it...
I'm really not trying to have a go at anyone. Rickie would hit it terrible with that swing and old gear, but would adapt to it given time.
It's getting a bit boring the whole Hogan was the only person who did it right thing...
He was amazing with that gear and ball....truly amazing
But with Hogan's swing, would he hit as many greens as fairways with modern gear? And the same swing?
He's likely fresh air the first swing with a modern driver....
Far too long a post but I think it sums up what a lot of people are thinking....
Swing like Hogan for blades, wood and balata....
If ya wanna play modern course and equipment.....bomb it like Bubba....
standing ovation, here here.
In regards to the point that i bolded; you are more right than you know however you do need a certain amount of spin combined with trajectory to hold tour level greens otherwise if you didn't create the spin a too high trajectory would be needed and you'd hit your irons way shorter. I'm sure you know that but just wanted others to realize.
Just to reiterate, you know how i got my short game better? Less spin, higher descent into the green; those low zipping shots look darn cool but unless you are on tour hitting them all day long practicing you have no shot controlling it on a consistent basis.
magicmarker
New
...and if RF wins enough times, his swing becomes the next "model" for future generations. Hopefully applied science like trackman and flightscope can get us off another one of those paths.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Great post Mike.
One thing we do KNOW FOR SURE: Video "analysis" of before and after "look" of a clubface, would get CREAMED by a system like Damon's MAT-T system or Mike Jacobs' AMM. Creamed, slaughtered, hammered, demolished, made to look like complete junk.
And the 3D system would get creamed by the ENSO-pro.
Real "rate of closure" which is measurable on the ENSO-pro, has LESS TO DO WITH THE LOOK OF BEFORE AND AFTER—video or 3D—than things like how late the release is, how fast the swing is, how flat the swing is, etc.
Tiger has WAY LESS "look" of closure now. Not sure it is best for him.
Let say you are talking about the REAL RATE OF CLOSURE AT IMPACT....and that is a big assumption....your GUESS about it being easier to control is NO MORE scientific as my theory about Swiss Almond Vanilla Haagan-Daaz being the best ice cream flavor.
No proof.
ZERO.
No test.
No project.
No real data to observe.
A complete and utter MARKETING BUNCH of bull-turds.
You have no data on what golfers are actually doing, and the LOOK of closure that is the only one being talked about except for from us, has already been shown to not be any more reliable than a blind dart throw.
Preach on, lil' brotha.
Whoa.
Stop right there.
I NEVER SAID IT WASN'T IMPORTANT. I SAID NO CURRENT GOLF THEORIST HAS ANY REAL DATA AND THE LOOK THAT ALL YA'LL ARE TALKING ABOUT IS NEXT TO NOTHING!!!!!!!!!
NO.
NOONE REALLY KNOW THIS ANSWER.
You have to have real numbers and do real test on real golfer in real scientific environments.
LESS IS NOT ALWAYS MORE!!!!!!!!!
Less head movement, less weight shift, less.....what's next less wrist cock, less length of shafts, less...
BS.
ZERO PROOF.
Yup.
There is zero proof of this as well. I've seen numbers put up that are UNBEATABLE. And it was not Jim.
Lets have a world contest.
I'll be $1000 cash Furyk DOES NOT WIN.
He is a great ball-striker, but, there are folks just a s good or better.
"Pivot Staller": a great Marketing term for hip spinners who hate real science.
Good post.
Good points.
If the whole Rate of Closure thing had a SHREAD of relevance, it would apply to putting right???????????????
Right?
Right?
????
Yeah. Huh?
The next great american golfer.
Amen.
Isn't this where Brian chimes in and says "yer all guessin" ???
You were right, huh?
The next great American Golfer.
Fowler would be selling drinks and balls at a range if he didn't do what he does and tried to swing like Hogan. It's the modern swing for lightweight equipment that he uses....
To be fair, Furyk hits it straight but nowhere, if he was that straight and long enough he would win every week.
It's a new game, with new equipment....
If Hogan was playing on tour today he would be swinging the same way Fowler is...
Hogan had to swing that way to optimise contact/distance as the gear was so hard to hit....if you weren't precise you were in the rough or missed the green. Modern guys have grown up with gear that doesn't need as precise a center contact, with a low spin ball which means they can swing faster....
The sweetspot was TINY back then compared to modern gear.
I have a set or persimmons and spalding blades that I use from time to time....but it was gear that used a spinny ball and is a long gone era.
Hogan was the best ballstriker with that equipment (Moe Norman maybe better) but today's modern game is to bomb it through the air and have a great short game and putt 10 million times better than Hogan ever did....
I actually think if Ben Hogan grew up with todays equipment he would swing like the modern players and still win like he did....it was him, and his work ethic that did it, not his 'swing'
He was optimised for old equipment and probably couldn't even hit a modern driver...you cannot compare it the large heads and graphite shafts.
With modern gear, maybe "pivot goat humping stalling" is the way to go?
Should Bubba and Ricky try to swing like Hogan?
Or should they keep doing what they are doing instead of mini tour/club pro/amateur events but releasing it "the old fashioned way" and striking it pure, low and nowhere...
Modern greens are hard and firm, they need trajectory not spin to hold them.
I think Darius is right in the respect and the modern swing would be terrible for persimmon and mini blades and a balata ball.....
But the equipment bus has long left and the guys who are "The best players in the WORLD" are doing whats best to win with the modern gear...
There is no right or wrong.....it's apples and oranges....different era's and swings....
Old way (for me this means Hogan optimised pivot controlled release, downward hit) was precise but hit it nowhere and low in modern terms........unless you were an exceptional athlete (Ben Hogan, Snead, Nicklaus).
It sounded and looked awesome, but it's not where golf is now. I grew up with a blade and balata and hit spinny downward wedges that looked great with a balata. Does it mean it's wrong to use the bounce and hit a low spin, high trajectory short game shot? Nope, it's just how the game has moved with the modern ball. I'm happy to be labelled a flipper hitting it close all day long....than to watch a guy with a flat left wrist try to spin a modern ball enough to stop it...
I'm really not trying to have a go at anyone. Rickie would hit it terrible with that swing and old gear, but would adapt to it given time.
It's getting a bit boring the whole Hogan was the only person who did it right thing...
He was amazing with that gear and ball....truly amazing
But with Hogan's swing, would he hit as many greens as fairways with modern gear? And the same swing?
He's likely fresh air the first swing with a modern driver....
Far too long a post but I think it sums up what a lot of people are thinking....
Swing like Hogan for blades, wood and balata....
If ya wanna play modern course and equipment.....bomb it like Bubba....
Hogan swing would be soooooooooo different. He would HAVE TO BE.
Not unless it comes from me.
JThompson
New
Brian. . .
I think clubhead Rate of Closure at impact would effect putting. And it is possible that it does.
What about this movement to straight back and straight through putting with face balanced putters? Is it possible this is a way to negate all together the variable of clubhead rate of closure?
What will it take for the golfing community to accurately asses these clubhead characteristics and their impact on the golf ball at impact? What type of research needs to take place? Who has the knowledge and skill to achieve this research?
I think clubhead Rate of Closure at impact would effect putting. And it is possible that it does.
What about this movement to straight back and straight through putting with face balanced putters? Is it possible this is a way to negate all together the variable of clubhead rate of closure?
What will it take for the golfing community to accurately asses these clubhead characteristics and their impact on the golf ball at impact? What type of research needs to take place? Who has the knowledge and skill to achieve this research?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Well....
The putter thing is not proved either.
The face-ballanced putter phase may have more to do with shape and high MOI, I predict more and more of these types of putters in NON-face balanced.
Lots of folks in the last 10 years got better putting WITH MORE ARC AND MORE FACE ROTATION.
Tiger at his best had MASSIVE closure putting.
The putter thing is not proved either.
The face-ballanced putter phase may have more to do with shape and high MOI, I predict more and more of these types of putters in NON-face balanced.
Lots of folks in the last 10 years got better putting WITH MORE ARC AND MORE FACE ROTATION.
Tiger at his best had MASSIVE closure putting.
Michael Finney
New
good post, brian.....
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Fowler a goat humper?? Where would the goat be?
JThompson
New
I know Dariusz J. has meaning behind this phrase (its not just an insult is it?) what does he mean by this?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Every decent golfer without a severe physical limitation (not the old man in CaddyShack—"That's a peach") tucks their hips under themselves through impact.
Someone once called it, "humping a goat."
Italians don't talk about goats on their lesson tee. Ah...no.
Everyone has hip deceleration, Everyone humps.
Only the where is different.
Someone once called it, "humping a goat."
Italians don't talk about goats on their lesson tee. Ah...no.
Everyone has hip deceleration, Everyone humps.
Only the where is different.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
The whole roc thing makes me giggle, every video i've ever seen roc will "look" different based on camera angle/shot being attempted/GRIP TYPE.
Meaning weak grip, draw, aimed right, camera aimed down target line = GIGANTIC rate of closure
Meaning strong grip, straight-ish shot, aimed straight, camera aimed down target line = very little rate of closure (still draw ballflight)
Meaning weak grip, draw, aimed right, camera aimed down target line = GIGANTIC rate of closure
Meaning strong grip, straight-ish shot, aimed straight, camera aimed down target line = very little rate of closure (still draw ballflight)
Brian Manzella
Administrator
"Rate of Closure" : a term thrown around by teachers scared of something, or somebody.
Dariusz J.
New member
Fowler would be selling drinks and balls at a range if he didn't do what he does and tried to swing like Hogan. It's the modern swing for lightweight equipment that he uses....
To be fair, Furyk hits it straight but nowhere, if he was that straight and long enough he would win every week.
It's a new game, with new equipment....
If Hogan was playing on tour today he would be swinging the same way Fowler is...
Hogan had to swing that way to optimise contact/distance as the gear was so hard to hit....if you weren't precise you were in the rough or missed the green. Modern guys have grown up with gear that doesn't need as precise a center contact, with a low spin ball which means they can swing faster....
The sweetspot was TINY back then compared to modern gear.
I have a set or persimmons and spalding blades that I use from time to time....but it was gear that used a spinny ball and is a long gone era.
Hogan was the best ballstriker with that equipment (Moe Norman maybe better) but today's modern game is to bomb it through the air and have a great short game and putt 10 million times better than Hogan ever did....
I actually think if Ben Hogan grew up with todays equipment he would swing like the modern players and still win like he did....it was him, and his work ethic that did it, not his 'swing'
He was optimised for old equipment and probably couldn't even hit a modern driver...you cannot compare it the large heads and graphite shafts.
With modern gear, maybe "pivot goat humping stalling" is the way to go?
Should Bubba and Ricky try to swing like Hogan?
Or should they keep doing what they are doing instead of mini tour/club pro/amateur events but releasing it "the old fashioned way" and striking it pure, low and nowhere...
Modern greens are hard and firm, they need trajectory not spin to hold them.
I think Darius is right in the respect and the modern swing would be terrible for persimmon and mini blades and a balata ball.....
But the equipment bus has long left and the guys who are "The best players in the WORLD" are doing whats best to win with the modern gear...
There is no right or wrong.....it's apples and oranges....different era's and swings....
Old way (for me this means Hogan optimised pivot controlled release, downward hit) was precise but hit it nowhere and low in modern terms........unless you were an exceptional athlete (Ben Hogan, Snead, Nicklaus).
It sounded and looked awesome, but it's not where golf is now. I grew up with a blade and balata and hit spinny downward wedges that looked great with a balata. Does it mean it's wrong to use the bounce and hit a low spin, high trajectory short game shot? Nope, it's just how the game has moved with the modern ball. I'm happy to be labelled a flipper hitting it close all day long....than to watch a guy with a flat left wrist try to spin a modern ball enough to stop it...
I'm really not trying to have a go at anyone. Rickie would hit it terrible with that swing and old gear, but would adapt to it given time.
It's getting a bit boring the whole Hogan was the only person who did it right thing...
He was amazing with that gear and ball....truly amazing
But with Hogan's swing, would he hit as many greens as fairways with modern gear? And the same swing?
He's likely fresh air the first swing with a modern driver....
Far too long a post but I think it sums up what a lot of people are thinking....
Swing like Hogan for blades, wood and balata....
If ya wanna play modern course and equipment.....bomb it like Bubba....
A very good and intelligent post. Judging from the number of likes from my adversaries in the discussion they did not understand it fully.
Assuming you're 100% right, we can draw the following conclusions:
- Hogan worked a biokinetic pattern that ensured the most repeatable and effective impact because he had to with his very tough clubs;
- today's game does not require such kinetic efficiency and repeatability because a. conditions are different, b. equipment is different; thus, biokinetic patterns of today serve to a bit different goals than repeatability;
Now a question: if today's hackers cannot find any consistency and repeatability and are spreading shots ewerywhere despite an easy-to-hit forgiving equipment -- what should they do ? go towards patterns that already proved to be satisfactory in this goal (Hogan) or go towards current tour pros who themselves suck with consistency and repeatability ?
The answer is more than clear.
Cheers
welshdentist
New
I just practice with an old 2 iron and a persimmon driver off the deck. They have no feel for the sweetspot.
A teaching pro would make a fortune just giving lessons using those and a tourstriker, then at the end they hit their own gear and go
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWW! This is so easy....
They need to practice harder (difficulty) and play with easy.....
The average hacker has nowhere near the body type/strength or flexibility to swing like Hogan. Do you realise how strong your forearms need to be to hold off the release like that? And how strong and fast a core?
For the average jelly belly who sits behind a desk all day, take me as an example.
I've just been to see a physio who looks after guys on tour, I am swinging as well as I can with the body I have. I consider myself a good example of middle aged overweight and inflexible but my FMS screen sucked. Outer hips totally locked...
If I tried to swing like Hogan I'd hit it 210 off the tee or injure myself.
I am a massive fan of Hogan, he is my hero in golf terms....
But the sheer number of balls hit and strength of the man to swing like that? With that gear.... Legend
I think the average chopper needs to "swing" and crossover/slap hinge release it with a gentle body action....It goes far enough
All they need is an very basic understanding of face, path and low point. If they want to get even better, D Plane knowledge and regular lessons on grip, alignment and setup.
I actually believe Lanny Bassham (Mental Coach) when he says unless you are going to train 3-4 times a week you may as well not bother (if you want to get better)
I'm all for learning a swing with persimmon and blades and playing old yardage tracks...
But modern courses don't play that way...
Old Courses old gear, new courses new gear/swing
It's not complicated.....
Dariusz J.
New member
You still do not understand the merits which are on the level of primary school math and physics, sorry. What you always do in such cases is just cover it with usual cascade of abusive words. That's the truth, Brian. Sorry.
Ask any of your physicists about RoC NOT IN THE SENSE OF IMPACT BUT IN THE SENSE OF POSSIBILITIES TO DELIVER TO IMPACT (with different RoC's). Come on, it is an easy stuff not requiring any data, common sense is even enough.
Again, you did not understand. I do not even need friggin data to this theoretical construct.
Now, here we would need data. Real data. Really objective real data from real golfers, not only tour pros. I bet golfers with slower RoC will have much better results of dispersion than fast RoC players. One would need to determine the criteria for machines and let's go. I am the first to be happy to know the results and I AM SURE THEY WILL CONFIRM WHAT I SAY. AMEN.
Actually, I have a proof while you can only talk what you saw. You have nada, zilch, zero, total BS.
I will look in the evening for this TM raport where Tuxen said what were the results of his experiments on Tour pros. I will bring the link here. What will you bring, Brian ?
Cheers
Dariusz J.
New member
Geez, you have lost some % of my respect you've gained when I read your previous great post.
Not the way Hogan swung in microscale = copying his swing, but using macroscale biokinetic principles of swings of Hogan and similar ones !!! Pivot-guided motions with using ground forces in short. Everyone can do this. I am fatter and older than you and I am a very consistent golfer who stays within a 1 HCP point for the third season without training and playing every 2 weeks on the average mainly in tournaments !!! So spare me this silly talk, please.
Cheers
Dear welshdentist,
I practice with a 'senior, retired' German dentist at the driving range several times a week, and he continually while taking lessons once a week makes the same swing mistakes, AND EXPECTS DIFFERENT RESULTS. My frustration is that the almost million degrees a of freedom of the movement of all the golf-affected joints, in a random statistical way allows him to pull hook a 200 plus yard carry shot now and then encouraging him to believe his lessons are paying off.
I watched a few lessons and have yet to hear/see the instructor even mention his random TEMPO, or more importantly his insufficient lower and upper body dynamic balance.
I will take a leap of faith and predict without us ever having met that you too may be missing the CRUCIAL CORNERSTONES OF EVERY GOLF SWING.
Please, for the sake of the 'million hits a week' this wonderful Brian Manzella Site enjoys, try the repeating swings without a ball to establish YOUR TEMPO, then "Bumpy Back, Keep it Back" and get ready for the golf swing improvements of your life, and hopefully for the rest of your life.
I stand ready to help you with ANY problems you encounter, but since you, if you give this a real honest chance, are in a population of folks, all of which have been successful, and just in this past week include a retired professional basketball player, a father and son from Surry viisiting Southern California, and a 93 year old golfer awaiting a left hip replacement, formerly a 3 (now 23 handicap), that with 'balance' enjoyed 15 yards more on his 7 iron, and 30 yards more on his driver, ALL DOWN THE MIDDLE.
My interest with you however, is (1) the improvement I KNOW you can realize, (2) hopefully the interest of anyone reading this string, but most importantly (3) to BALANCE THE FAILURE I AM HAVING WITH THAT OTHER DENTIST, IMO, because of his bullheadedness, and his teacher who apparently doesn't believe the importance or maybe the priority and sequence of teaching TEMPO and DYNAMIC BALANCE AND STABILITY control as the cornerstones of a a repeatable and reliable golf swing.
So as some folks say, THANKS FOR LISTENING, but more importantly for all of us, PLEASE TRY THE ABOVE, and let all of us know the results.
Sincerely and appreciatively,
art
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