2004 PGA Teaching and Coaching Summit
- Thread starter Brian Manzella
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Lagster will be there. I have been to two others, but didn't get much out of them. I remember one had Leadbetter, Haney, and Ballard each with a new student on stage. Haney and Leadbetter's students were not catching on very quickly as I recall, and Jimmy fixed his guy in about six swings. I also remember Jimmy's explanation of plane was quite unusual. "Keep the club pointing anywhere between the line your feet is on, and the line your ball is on."
Brian Manzella
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See ya there, Lagster!
Fred Shoemaker could/can flat out play, he was a superb golfer when I knew of him in the 80s when I visited the States. I met him at a range in Silicon Valley.
An PGA touring pro told me how good Fred was - they used to go golfing in Arizona for a week or 2 each year. The pro played the main tour in his prime and he told me how good Fred was.
Chris
An PGA touring pro told me how good Fred was - they used to go golfing in Arizona for a week or 2 each year. The pro played the main tour in his prime and he told me how good Fred was.
Chris
Just do yourself a favor and find the worst hacker in the world and offer to video tape his swing. Video tape him once swinging at the ball, and once after he's thrown a club a couple of times. (He/she will have to get used to not throwing it left behind them first).... then compare the two video's and tell me they haven't just made a sugnificant advancement in Lag, hands at impact, body pivot, balance, and plane.
The difference is that the throw catches a bit of turf when a ball is there... the two motions are identical until the end of release.
BTW, it's helpful to specify that the target is ON THE GROUND, and that the purpose is not to throw the club in the air.... but AT the target.
The difference is that the throw catches a bit of turf when a ball is there... the two motions are identical until the end of release.
BTW, it's helpful to specify that the target is ON THE GROUND, and that the purpose is not to throw the club in the air.... but AT the target.
Ringer,
Throwing a club at the target is the worst possible advice because it reinforces the natural tendency to Steer. There must be no hand effort toward the target - all hand effort must be DOWN on plane toward the ball(or an aiming point near the ball). If you learn NOTHING else from Homer, it should be that.
Throwing a club at the target is the worst possible advice because it reinforces the natural tendency to Steer. There must be no hand effort toward the target - all hand effort must be DOWN on plane toward the ball(or an aiming point near the ball). If you learn NOTHING else from Homer, it should be that.
Miz, it sooner reinforces steering as picking an aiming point does. Trust me, you tell someone to throw the club down the fairway and steering is the LAST THING they try to do. Releasing properly is the first thing. There is no hand effort involved other than when to let go.
AGAIN.. video tape it. Flat left wrist through the impact area, bent right wrist until full extension.. everything you want to teach them is done when they throw a club.
AGAIN.. video tape it. Flat left wrist through the impact area, bent right wrist until full extension.. everything you want to teach them is done when they throw a club.
Neither miz. You don't throw the top or bottom part of a baseball at the catchers mit.. you throw the whole thing. And as for where, I'll say it again.. AT THE TARGET. Which is on the ground. Not an aiming point, not a ball, but a hole or area of grass out there in the land of golf courses.
The target is the ball. That is where you want the clubhead/face to go.
Some may think that the ball gets in the way of the clubhead but that only happens because the ball is located at the right spot in the circle and it is in the correct spot because we made it the target.
Now the hands can have a target but I think aiming point is more accurate a term.
The ball lands down the fairway or on the green because it can only obey what the clubface did to it.
Once the ball becomes the target, impact and educated hands become allies. If the target is down the fairway then throwing clubs at it works.
Homer has several throws, all at the target, all at the ball.
See 10-20 .. B or E works well at the target/ball.
Some may think that the ball gets in the way of the clubhead but that only happens because the ball is located at the right spot in the circle and it is in the correct spot because we made it the target.
Now the hands can have a target but I think aiming point is more accurate a term.
The ball lands down the fairway or on the green because it can only obey what the clubface did to it.
Once the ball becomes the target, impact and educated hands become allies. If the target is down the fairway then throwing clubs at it works.
Homer has several throws, all at the target, all at the ball.
See 10-20 .. B or E works well at the target/ball.
Ringer,
That's what I thought you meant by the target. And to make the club get there, there HAS to be a horizontal hand effort, or else the club couldn't get airborn. Assuming doing this carries over to the club thrower's golf swing, which would be the only reason for doing it, the club thrower will Steer the club, i.e., swing along the Flight Line(3-F-7-A), the NUMBER ONE MALFUNCTION.
In addition, this club throwing will teach the student to throw away #2 accum, UNLESS he throws the club butt first like a dart toward the hole, which is the most unlikely action he would take. What most WILL do is deliberately release #2 and let go so that the clubhead(heavy end) will lead the butt. The problem is that in a proper Swing, the butt of the club is directed toward the ball as though there will be NO #2 RELEASE AT ALL.
And, finally, it will teach the student QUITTING(3-F-7-B). Someone who throws a club will not do a Follow-Through and Finish, but will stop his hands when he turns loose of the club.
That's what I thought you meant by the target. And to make the club get there, there HAS to be a horizontal hand effort, or else the club couldn't get airborn. Assuming doing this carries over to the club thrower's golf swing, which would be the only reason for doing it, the club thrower will Steer the club, i.e., swing along the Flight Line(3-F-7-A), the NUMBER ONE MALFUNCTION.
In addition, this club throwing will teach the student to throw away #2 accum, UNLESS he throws the club butt first like a dart toward the hole, which is the most unlikely action he would take. What most WILL do is deliberately release #2 and let go so that the clubhead(heavy end) will lead the butt. The problem is that in a proper Swing, the butt of the club is directed toward the ball as though there will be NO #2 RELEASE AT ALL.
And, finally, it will teach the student QUITTING(3-F-7-B). Someone who throws a club will not do a Follow-Through and Finish, but will stop his hands when he turns loose of the club.
Miz, I respect your opinion as you have been a very fair poster and you appear to truely persue clarity even through passionate discussions. But you are falling into a trap easy to fall into ... anticipating you know what's going to happen without experiencing it or observing it. Look at the swing sequences of anyone throwing a club and you will clearly see your worries can be put to rest.
There is no need for horizontal hand effect because an object always flies at a right angle of the radius of when it was released.
Secondly, the club does NOT get directed into the air.. it is directed to the target ON THE GROUND... not a part of sky above the target. In fact, people THINK they must direct the club to have it go at the target, but when they attempt to do as you say, the club flies to the left and behind them. IN fact, it CLEARLY DEMONSTRATES that directing it at the target with any hand motion produces poor results. You would not know of this unless you tried it for yourself.
As for your concern about #2 accumulator loss, surprisingly the OPPOSITE effect is true. Conservation of momentum is held off until the last possible moment.. a natural reaction involved in any throwing motion. Again, you would have to observe it for yourself before you would actually believe it, but it is true non-theless.
As for your last concern, again the exact opposite effect occurs. Which of these two TARGETS would allow for you to stop accelleration sooner? Throwing to a ball, or throwing down the fairway? The fairway is further along the arc in orientation is it not? And because of this accelleration, flipping hands does not occur.
But please don't write something off that you haven't observed. I even offer video's of me throwing clubs.. but you won't see much difference between my normal swing and the club throwing swing because I do the same motion for both. But take a hacker and ask him to do it, and the video evidence is as clear as night and day.
Ringer,
I've been watching "club throwers" at my course for over 5 yrs. None have progressed and all exhibit the negatives I posted above. The "club throwing" Head Pro has since moved on and left his "works in progress" behind.
Now, if my objective was to throw a club at the hole with a GOLF SWING, I would have to be able to turn it loose at just the right time in the follow through. On the other hand, if my objective was simply to toss the club toward a point somewhere out there, I wouldn't use a golf swing to do it. The two mechanisms are different. The problem here is that the student, not having a proper golf swing, doesn't know that.
If you INSIST that the student throw something in order to learn a correct swing procedure, have him throw darts at the inside rear quadrant of the ball.
I'll turn this argument over to others - let's hear what Brian, hn1, and other AIs think about club throwing.
PS - cdog, are you going to throw the club head-first or butt-first, and what will be your target, the ball or the hole?
I've been watching "club throwers" at my course for over 5 yrs. None have progressed and all exhibit the negatives I posted above. The "club throwing" Head Pro has since moved on and left his "works in progress" behind.
Now, if my objective was to throw a club at the hole with a GOLF SWING, I would have to be able to turn it loose at just the right time in the follow through. On the other hand, if my objective was simply to toss the club toward a point somewhere out there, I wouldn't use a golf swing to do it. The two mechanisms are different. The problem here is that the student, not having a proper golf swing, doesn't know that.
If you INSIST that the student throw something in order to learn a correct swing procedure, have him throw darts at the inside rear quadrant of the ball.
I'll turn this argument over to others - let's hear what Brian, hn1, and other AIs think about club throwing.
PS - cdog, are you going to throw the club head-first or butt-first, and what will be your target, the ball or the hole?
IMO better to throw it ahead of the ball, or to 'slap' the inside back corner down and out to right field, down throught the ground to low point/both arms straight - and finish with an upper cut motion.
Do this with the drills I have outlined and you'll find yourself fairly close to Tiger's move. You will feel full extension of the right arm.
As for club throwing, there is no doubt that this is beneficial. Yes, WHERE you throw is important. Done properly, I see no difference between a proper club throw, and a proper swing.
Imagine you were going to throw a broken shaft so that it 'stuck' into the ground ahead of the ball at a 45 degree angle. To do this you need to 'release' it well before most people think.
Try it. Film it. Send the force to both arms straight.
This is the concept behind the 'power release' and the swingrite (or swingright 2000 as it is now known, not the heavy club McLean is selling). Both very good aids IMO.
I look forward to hearing about Shoemaker's presentation.
I have heard of several top instructors that like the club throwing drill... I think Craig Shankland is one. I don't know how much it helps people. As far as training aids... there are several new one's out there now. Jim McLean has the one that straps on the leg, for X Factor, Vjay endorses The Speed Stick, and I've seen a few others. Have any of you had good results with any of these things?
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