2004 PGA Teaching and Coaching Summit

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rwh

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I've never thrown a club . . . well, not in the way you guys are talking about. I'm willing to keep an open mind until I try it tonight. So, a few questions.

How To Do It:

1. Use one or both hands?

2. If done "correctly", where will the club go? Down the fairway or into the ground right in front of me?

Why Do It?

3. What is the goal of the drill?
 

EdZ

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quote:Originally posted by rwh

I've never thrown a club . . . well, not in the way you guys are talking about. I'm willing to keep an open mind until I try it tonight. So, a few questions.

How To Do It:

1. Use one or both hands?

2. If done "correctly", where will the club go? Down the fairway or into the ground right in front of me?

Why Do It?

3. What is the goal of the drill?

Use both hands
The drill is generally done throwing it down the fairway. Once 'felt', you can adjust to throw at a spot in front of you, several feet in front of you, the 'lower' the throw the better IMO.

The goal - proper sequence - you will see beginners go from massive throw away, to a fairly respectable golf motion with decent lag.

Be aware that you will most likely throw it left, or even behind you, when you first try it. Make sure you have a very large clear area around you.

Throwing down the fairway gives the proper overall motion, then adjust to imagine the throw going 'into the ground' at about 45 degrees (several feet in front of you). Down, down, down. BELOW THE GROUND. Low point is below the ground, in front of the ball.

If you are 'lengthening the shaft', the club shouldn't really spin much, if at all, when thrown.

Again, you'll need to 'release' much earlier than your instincts would generally tell you.

I'd bet Shoemaker is going to have some great examples at his presentation. His book is a must read IMO.
 
EdZ did a good job of describing it. I just want to add that too often people think of the target as a spot much further along their arc. Remember that this is NOT LINAR MOTION, it is rotational which makes the point of your release much sooner than you expect.. as EdZ was saying. The result of this release is a LOWER BOTTOM of the arc than 99% of amateurs create. It teaches to remove an upward intention with the club. Precisely the same thing you hear as "hitting down" on the ball. What the club throwing drill does is GIVE THEM THE FEEL OF WHAT IS RIGHT. And it's instant. The moment they see the club go AT THE TARGET (not airborn but at the target) they will know they have done it right. Then they can imitate the feel that they have produced. The distinction is finally made.

Miz, you may have seen a senior pro who used this drill, and he was ineffective as an instructor, but that in no way means the drill itself is ineffective. He was probably not as capable of making the student AWARE of the distinctions as he should have been.
 
By The By... Today I took a random person off the driving range today, someone I have never seen before in my life.. and gave him this drill. I only defined the direction of the target as I have with all of you, and the diferences of before the drill and after the drill are astounding. I'll try to get the video up tonight.
 
Here is the video of Pat. Notice a flat left wrist at impact, and bent right, with hands ahead when throwing the club. The finish is all the way on his front foot and his balance is greatly improved. Pat's immediate comment to me after throwing 5 clubs was, "I feel like my right hand has been too tense through impact but when I throw these clubs I have to relax my right to let it go to the target."

And if you look at the video.. he's dead on right. And I didn't say a word about it, he figured it out on his own.

http://www.golfinstruction.biz/videos/Pat-clubthrow.mpg

On the last swing, you can see he still has a bit of the right hand throw. If I were spending more than 15 minutes with him, we would have went into it at much greater length. In the end, Pat felt he needed to do two things. Relax his right elbow, and finish facing the target. Again, those were two things he completely figured out on his own.
 
Ringer,

I'm STILL not sure what you mean by the "target". If the student is 100yds from the green, is the "target" the hole? Is that the place to which the student is attempting to throw the club? Or just some point "out there towards the green", but nowhere near the ball position?
The club should get airborn - right?

Secondly, you seem to be using the word "release" in two different ways. Let's reserve the word "release" for the point at which #2 accumulator begins it's unloading in a proper golf Swing. In the throw of the club, let's use the phrase, "the letting go of the club", rather than "release".

Now - when the student "lets go of the club", when does that happen in relation to when the club "releases"?

I can't get your video to play - it brings up a new window, and no video appears.

The aforementioned club throwing Head Pro, is about 30-35 - not a senior. He's a typical "Head Pro" - tall, deeply tanned, personable, can break 80, but not par, and says that TGM is worthless.
 
Miz - I am not him. I have had my reservations about TGM, and I have slowly come to the conclusion it is not a book to be feared... unless you're a student and a golf-hypochondriac. I don't USE the book to explain things to my students.... but I have found it useful for my understanding. Unfortunately there seem to be few who actually wish to see me continue that. Many folks prefer to resist any learning done on my part about it... rather unfortunate. You my friend, are in the former group, and not the latter. You have gained my respect.

The confusion of "release" is understandable. But I have this tendency to relate everything I can with other normal, everyday proceedures. When do you "release" the ball when you throw it? If you want to be a stickler about it, you're going to have the same problems as we have here. But the problem is, the release you speak of and the "letting go of the club" are really of the same intention... just as it is in pitching. They would not call it a release in baseball if in fact he held onto the ball.

So it is not easy to seperate the two of when "release" happens and when "letting the club go" happens... however "letting the club go" is a point somewhere during the "release".. and will be different for everybody with just as much variation as the aiming point is. So there is no one specific point I can say to you at which the club is let go.

Now, the target. If it's a hole... then it must be one dug out of the ground. So when I say, "It's a spot on the ground" that's precisely what I mean. We are NOT trying to get the ball airborn... but as a result of the target being further along to the horizon than where we are, the result will be a small amount of airtime. There is NO intention to throw the club into the air, just as there is no intention to get the BALL in the air... the club will do that work.

I hope this answers your questions adequately miz.
 
Ringer,

You say the intention is not to get the club airborn. Better to tell the student the intention is to NOT get the club airborn. Better, but not good. Now, if the student already has a good Swing, he will simply let go of the club at impact AFTER release, because at that point the clubhead will still be going downward. Not so with the ordinary player, whose clubhead will be traveling upward at impact. So to make the club hit the ground, he will simply let go sooner, i.e. during release. That will not train him properly.

So how do I feel still better(but still not good) about this? Tell the student that he HAS to let go of the club at impact.

Now...how can I feel GOOD about club throwing? I can't, because TGM provides precision stroke engineering, which WILL NOT FAIL.

PS - I didn't mean to imply that you were anything like my club throwing Head Pro - on the contrary, you are that very rare PGA "establishment" pro, who is taking up, rather than rejecting, TGM, and that's great, because you will only become a better instructor for it!
 
I hate to say it Miz.. but you're being rather close minded about it. You're trying to reject it before even seeing it. I'm sure few believed Henry Ford could increas productivity with the assembly line, but once it was seen, the results were undeniable.

Just open up your mind to the POSSIBILITY that it's helpful. Perhaps, just perhaps your inhibitions are unfounded in fear. Just because it's not in the book, does not make it bad.

In a 15 minute club throwing session, Pat discovered on his own, his very real swing issues. Little had to be said other than to give specifics as I have said here about the target. The video of his improvement speaks volumes, yet you still reject it.

So maybe there is a more core issue here. Why do you have such faith in TGM?... and is it a blind faith? Or perhaps because it spoke of truths which you understood. Well what happens if there is something which is not in the book but immediately makes the "FEEL OF TRUTH" understood? Knowlege alone does not make a golf swing.

Just TRY it... observe it, before denouncing it. I have given your book at least that much.. perhaps you can extend for my method the same courtesy.
 
Ringer,

At least you now admit that the student shouldn't throw the club at the intended "ball destination", which is the question you were initially asked, and which started this debate.

I'm convinced through my own EXPERIENCE that the mechanism of throwing clubs interferes with the proper movements which produce the BEST POSSIBLE Swing procedure. It could very well be that your student did strike the ball better after throwing his club into the ground, but better than bad, doesn't mean it's good. I simply can't get your video to display, so could you post the following - 2 frames before impact, the frame at impact, and 1 frame past impact?

When you suggest that I have "blind faith" in TGM, and am closed minded, have you forgotten that I offered up an ALTERNATIVE to "Hand Controlled Pivot" and "Pivot Controlled Hands", namely "Elbow Controlled Pivot", which is NOT IN THE BOOK? I never accept ANYTHING concerning the golf swing from TGM or any other source, unless I verify it with clubs and golf balls.
 
quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

Ringer,

At least you now admit that the student shouldn't throw the club at the intended "ball destination", which is the question you were initially asked, and which started this debate.

I'm convinced through my own EXPERIENCE that the mechanism of throwing clubs interferes with the proper movements which produce the BEST POSSIBLE Swing procedure. It could very well be that your student did strike the ball better after throwing his club into the ground, but better than bad, doesn't mean it's good. I simply can't get your video to display, so could you post the following - 2 frames before impact, the frame at impact, and 1 frame past impact?

When you suggest that I have "blind faith" in TGM, and am closed minded, have you forgotten that I offered up an ALTERNATIVE to "Hand Controlled Pivot" and "Pivot Controlled Hands", namely "Elbow Controlled Pivot", which is NOT IN THE BOOK? I never accept ANYTHING concerning the golf swing from TGM or any other source, unless I verify it with clubs and golf balls.

Ummmm... you are throwing it at the "intended ball destination", just not the intended ball path. The clubface is what makes the ball go in the air. The problem is, people think they must let go too late in the swing in order to make it go to the target.

I'll post the pictures you requested.

Pat-1.jpg

Pat-2.jpg

Pat-3.jpg

Pat-4.jpg

Pat-5.jpg

Pat-6.jpg

Pat-7.jpg

Pat-8.jpg

Pat-9.jpg
 
2nd and 3rd pics (post club throw drill)from the top, it looks like he has stood straight up. There in no bend in his waist at all. 3rd down "pre-drill" looks pretty nice (right wrist bent, left wrist flat), but, bottom pic "pre-drill" he loses it. This guy is fairly athletic, he has a lot of upside potential. I'd like to see him work with an impact bag or do carpet beater drills. Square up that open stance a shade and work on keeping that tush out and retaining his address position through the swing. Left wrist breaking down is the most glaring fault,standing upright a close 2nd, but, he only seemed to do that on the club throwing drill.
 
Ringer,

Thanks for the frames. Look at the 2nd set of frames from the top. Notice the very good shaft position in the Pre-drill pic vs the loss of angle in the club throwing pic - just as I suspected. This is because of his focus on getting to a "letting go" position. The mechanism of throwing preempted a proper delayed "release".

The post impact frames at the bottom, are a stark contrast. He does look much better in the club throwing frame. However, that position won't get it's reward if he loses the angle early on the way there.

He is also a great example of why stopping at the Top rather than going to the End in the BS is desirable for most and NECESSARY for some.

The most telling sequence would be the post-drill swing without throwing. Do you have the frames at impact and when the hands just reach the right thigh? The one at impact is THE most important.
 
Perfect doesn't happen in 5 minutes. So he straightens up... not too tough to fix that... Hands ahead, flat left/bent right... there's no loss of lag... weight transfer is far superior... and he quits during his original swing where as he goes all the way through on the club throwing drill.

The behind view was his FIRST THROW... the one face on was his THIRD.

quote:Throwing a club at the target is the worst possible advice because it reinforces the natural tendency to Steer. There must be no hand effort toward the target - all hand effort must be DOWN on plane toward the ball(or an aiming point near the ball). If you learn NOTHING else from Homer, it should be that.
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I think the hand positions through impact have proved otherwise.

quote:there HAS to be a horizontal hand effort, or else the club couldn't get airborn.
There was exactly the opposite of your prediction.

What about how his lower body is leading much more? What about how much better his weight is transfering? How about a flat left wrist and bent right one going through impact? What about how he doesn't quit during the drill? What about the lag being held longer into the forward swing? What about his right foot actually responding to the throw instead of hanging back? What about the 6th frame down where his body is shifting while his hands are dropping as opposed to his pre-throw swing? How bout the first frame, where the club is being put on the appropriate plane and not so steeply? How about his right elbow position comming into impact?

Yes he stands up, but that's because it was his first throw... from the face on view you might be able to see he keeps the angle much better... and as I said at the top, it's a pretty simple fix as compared to the hands through impact which take a heck of a lot longer to teach.
 
He had a flat left and bent right very late into the downswing previous to the toss drill. I think he is not aware of how swinging down and past the ball will get a ball in the air. I think he feels he needs to break the wrists and flip in order to get it airborne. You could kill two birds with one stone. As it stands if he keeps on tossing clubs he's gonna exchange flipping for standing straight up. He wouldndn't stand up and his weight transfer would both be better if he were explained the physics of that implement called the golf club.
 
quote:Originally posted by Ringer

Perfect doesn't happen in 5 minutes. So he straightens up... not too tough to fix that... Hands ahead, flat left/bent right... there's no loss of lag... weight transfer is far superior... and he quits during his original swing where as he goes all the way through on the club throwing drill.

Ringer, I think the club-throwing drill may have merit, but, in my opinion, does not comply with the underlying geometries of GOLF And I believe the merits could be better gained from other drills which do.

Certainly it helped your student relax and swing through the ball, and seemed to improve his hand orientation (flat left, bent right), but basically, any swing drill without a ball tends to do that. It is only when we put that damn ball in front of us that we try to scoop, steer and overaccelerate.

I actualy tried the drill today in my backyard. I found that if I released the club at or before impact, the clubhead went directly into the ground somewhere between my feet. The butt end of the clubshaft was leading the club and went towards the target until the clubhead halted its momentum.

If I released the club near or after impact the club flew left. This comforms with the law of the plane. After impact the club will go up, back and in.

I WAS able to get the club to fly down-field, but only by bending my plane-line and releasing the club-head straight down the target line.

The reason your student is able to throw his club down-field is because he is standing up through the shot, essentialy swinging on a near horizontal plane. The same geometries do not apply to the angled plane of the GOLF swing.

It seems to me that anyone, swinging on a horizontal plane without a ball, is likely to experience less left wrist breakdown than they might experience while swinging on an angled plane with a ball.

You teach for a living, so I won't tell you your job, but what if you set up the impact bag and let the student release the club as their hands passed the bag (on-plane)? Just a thought.

Triad
 
I'd like to see a student with a Full Sweep Release, in the before and after pictures. If it helps him, there might be something there.
 
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