60* Wedge - Distance Control - Impact Parameters/Club Design

[dlam]

For me "fadeability" starts with the 7 or 6iron.

Back to topic. I dont have a problem with distance control with my 60 wedge.
I regard the wedge shots more like a "stroke" than a "swing."
I dont swing hard , it's always 3/4 .

 

[Burner]

I think I know where you are going with this - but why?

Hey Virt,

Pretty sure I know the answer, but just want your take.

Around what loft does it become more beneficial to fade the ball?

Thanks,

Lindsey

Not my fight but.................

Surely your intention is based on course position you are at, the position you want to get to and how best to achieve that intention. Choice of club then gets made with that intention in mind; rather than loft of the club dictating the choice of shot.

Just sayin'.

 

[birly-shirly]

Magicmarker, the reason a lob wedge is hard to fade any significant amount is because it has a lot of loft to begin with, and you are adding more loft when you leave the face open to hit a fade. Because of that, it is difficult to have enough of a face/path differential to tilt the spin axis very much. On the other hand, they are easy to hook because you are reducing loft when you close the face.

A 3 iron is the opposite: easy to slice, very difficult to hook and keep in the air. If you close the face, you reduce loft from an already low lofted club, and the reduced spin (and thus reduced lift) makes the ball fall out of the air like a "dying quail."

Good rule of thumb: low lofts are easy to fade, high lofts are easy to draw.

PS: this can be seen in practice when Bubba Watson hits a duck hook with a wedge at the Masters, and when Tiger, who is very dynamically de-lofted at impact, mostly hits trap fades, especially with lower lofted clubs, and often into left pins.

Is it easier to move a wedge right to left than it is to move, say, an 8 iron left to right?

If so, presumably the explanation as to why involves more than just the relative dynamic or spin lofts of each shot.

 

[cwdlaw223]

I think ball speed factors into the practical effect of axis tilt. For example, if the axis tilts 2* at 90 mph might not be as disastrous at 2* at 120 mph. But, maybe it's a factor (and beyond practical effect) for axis tilt like face and path??? Not 100% sure.

 

[Virtuoso]

Guys, guys , guys, all I'm saying is this: if you need to hit a draw with some decent curve, it's easier if you already have some loft to work with. If you want to hit a fade with some decent curve, it's nice to not have a lot of loft to begin with. But all you guys know this already from just playing golf. If you have to hit a slice around a tree, you would rather have a 4 iron than a 9 iron. If you need to hit a hook around a tree, you would rather have the 9 iron.

I am absolutely not saying this: somewhere in the middle of the bag it becomes easier to curve it a certain way, so you should absolutely curve it that way because it's easier to curve.

Obviously, it's not about hitting the shot that is easy to curve; it is about hitting the shot that allows you to curve it (or not curve it) predictably in direction and magnitude.

If you hit a high draw with a 2 iron, it doesn't mean you are hitting the wrong shot; it just means you're talented. Likewise if you can slice a lob wedge......actually, you are an alien if you can do that.

 

[magicmarker]

Magicmarker, the reason a lob wedge is hard to fade any significant amount is because it has a lot of loft to begin with, and you are adding more loft when you leave the face open to hit a fade. Because of that, it is difficult to have enough of a face/path differential to tilt the spin axis very much. On the other hand, they are easy to hook because you are reducing loft when you close the face.

A 3 iron is the opposite: easy to slice, very difficult to hook and keep in the air. If you close the face, you reduce loft from an already low lofted club, and the reduced spin (and thus reduced lift) makes the ball fall out of the air like a "dying quail."

Good rule of thumb: low lofts are easy to fade, high lofts are easy to draw.

PS: this can be seen in practice when Bubba Watson hits a duck hook with a wedge at the Masters, and when Tiger, who is very dynamically de-lofted at impact, mostly hits trap fades, especially with lower lofted clubs, and often into left pins.

Agree 100%.

But I also think gear effect has a very 'underrated' effect on ball flight. With the balls nowadays it can be hard to make the ball bend as much as you're trying to curve it without using the toe to hook it or the heel to slice. I find this option far easier to execute than severely bending the face-path relationship.

With all the speed Bubba has, it seems it should be easier for him to curve it, but it appears he has to exaggerate whichever shot he is trying to hit. My guess as to why he has to exaggerate the motion so much is that he is keeping impact closer to the true sweetspot.

 

[cwdlaw223]

Virtuoso -

Good post again. Helpful information. I didn't think of the fade ability issue until your post and it makes sense.

Does ball speed tilt the axis or just magnify the effect of the tilt?

 

[Virtuoso]

Virtuoso -

Good post again. Helpful information. I didn't think of the fade ability issue until your post and it makes sense.

Does ball speed tilt the axis or just magnify the effect of the tilt?

An increase in ball speed develops more lift perpendicular to the spin axis at a given spin rate....as far as I know (and I'm not a ball aerodynamicist) the ball speed does not contribute to any precession of the tilt axis.

If the ball speed increases and the lift increases, yes, the ball will curve more "up" and to the "side."

As you've noticed, into a headwind, the ball baloons more and curves more. Increasing ball speed at a given spin rate is no different. The ball couldn't care less whether it is moving 10 mph faster or the air is moving toward it 10 mph faster--the effect is the same. This is why you want low spin rates for very high ball speeds and high spin rates for lower ball speeds.

 

[cwdlaw223]

Hard for me to curve knuckleball like shots. I wonder if the lack of curvature for such shots is more attributable to less axis tilt (compared to a normal shot) or just less lift through less spin.

 

[Virtuoso]

Hard for me to curve knuckleball like shots. I wonder if the lack of curvature for such shots is more attributable to less axis tilt (compared to a normal shot) or just less lift through less spin.

Well, less lift through less spin is definitely less curve up the D-plane, they are the same.

If it was just less axis tilt, you would still see the ball curve "upward" even if straighter, ie, it would "balloon more"....and, hence forth, no longer be called a knuckleball.

 

[cwdlaw223]

Is less curve "up the D plane" the same thing as less curvature from a horizontal perspective (or less curve left/right)?

 

[Virtuoso]

Is less curve "up the D plane" the same thing as less curvature from a horizontal perspective (or less curve left/right)?

Of course, they are one and the same. BUT, the ratio of upward movement to side movement is not 1:1 unless the spin axis tilt is 45 degrees.