A controversial subject

[Ringer]

The idea of "club throwing" came up in another forum (not going to mention where but I'm sure most of you know).

I would like to hear what BM and Holenone have to say about this idea, and if they've experimented with it with their students.

I have personally seen people improve not just with the idea, but when they are able to see what their "throw" swing looks like. It's amazing how it looks like the ideal golf swing. It proves to so many people that they are very capable of a good golf swing. I think it's a powerful tool when used by the instructor.

 

[Brian Manzella]

The real problem with the drill is the DIRECTION of the throw.

The MANZELLA version:

"Imagine you are standing on the edge of a building and threw the club off of the building---down plane---in the direction of your aiming point."

 

[cdog]

Why dont we simply throw at the ball???

 

[njmp2]

quote:Originally posted by cdog

Why dont we simply throw at the ball???

We are! While the hands go to the aiming point, the clubhead is lagging behind and is "thrown" Down on the ball. Without the aiming point, it would be a throw away. This is what the throwing of the club out onto the fairway reinforces. Brain's and Yoda's concern for it comes from this and the lack of down in the drill.

 

[Burner]

Throwing a club, like an athlete throwing a discuss or the hammer, involves directing the force upwards and forwards, along a straight line of motion.

Golfers direct their force downwards, outwards; completing the motion inwards and upwards on an arcing line.

 

[Ringer]

Ahh.. but here in lies the TRUTH about club throwing.

In order to actually have the club fly straight at the target, you must release at the bottom of the swing arc. If you release any time later, then you will pull the club left. In effect, if you want the club to fly at the target, one must let go at the furthest "down" point in the swing.

 

[Brian Manzella]

NOpe.

 

[Ringer]

How nope? I'm under the impression that objects fly at a tanget to the point they are released. That would indicate the lowest point of the swing is where the club must be released. I have also felt this when I do the drill. I know that if I delay for even the slightest bit, I'll throw it left.

 

[njmp2]

The club at impact travels to the right of the ball (you hit the inside back of the ball) as the clubhead goes down the line because your right arm is straighten. If the swing is a circle, and it is, the club will not travel down your target line but inside to out and back up to the left. The ball should travel down target not the club.

 

[Ringer]

At it's heart, this is why I find TGM disturbing. It's great to see a cataloging of body movements according to the observations of HK and others. But here we have a PROVEN method of instruction which has shown dramatic improvement for so many people... yet using your interpretations of TGM there are attempts to debunk this proven method.

"Yeah, we know you have success.. but you shouldn't." is how this comes off to many people who sit outside of TGM.

Please know that I am NOT trying to "Bash" TGM. Quite to the contrary. IF it is such an encompassing book then why do you all not try to understand why this method is succesful? I am trying to understand it's success.

 

[cdog]

Its so successful because the swing is a throwing motion, Brian's own examples of skipping stones and THROWING a frisbie are examples.

 

[Burner]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

Ahh.. but here in lies the TRUTH about club throwing.

In order to actually have the club fly straight at the target, you must release at the bottom of the swing arc. If you release any time later, then you will pull the club left. In effect, if you want the club to fly at the target, one must let go at the furthest "down" point in the swing.

Wrong! If you released the club at the bottom of the arc you would just throw it into the ground.

To throw the club down the fairway would involve you hanging onto it until it reaches parallel to the ground on the forward swing.

Yet, club throwing has NOTHING to do with ball striking - it is merely a drill used by some to give students a feeling for a full swing, and complete release, of the club; and in THAT endeavour it is successful.

 

[fmlutz]

My impression and own experience of throwing the club says that Brian is right. If you throw the club down the plane line, the pivot will provide the direction to the target. The more I throw down the better the shot- as long as I turn through. Otherwise I hit it fat. Also if you try to throw the club towards the target or ball, you usually come over the top or hit a bad shot. At least that is my experience, but I have had good results trying to throw the club down.

 

[DDL]

Brian uses the frisbee with the left arm to demonstrate rotation, and the stone skipping with the right arm to demonstrate down and out. I guess if you combined the two, the resultant force would be less down, but still down and out, barely.

 

[ldeit]

Brian's image above is very good.

Another using the same idea is to imagine you are standing on a sheet of plexiglas propped about 3 feet above the ground. There is a large hole cut in the plexiglas where the ball would be located.

From the top of the backswing throw, a ball down and out, down plane through the hole in the plexiglas. As Brian said, its all about the "Direction of the Throw".

In my opinion, Brian's example and mine above are more 3-D than throwing a ball at a ball on the ground. When you throw at a ball on the ground, it appears to go a lot to the right because of the rebound off the ground.

It's all about the Direction of the Throw.

ldeit

 

[njmp2]

quote:Originally posted by ldeit

Brian's image above is very good.

Another using the same idea is to imagine you are standing on a sheet of plexiglas propped about 3 feet above the ground. There is a large hole cut in the plexiglas where the ball would be located.

From the top of the backswing throw, a ball down and out, down plane through the hole in the plexiglas. As Brian said, its all about the "Direction of the Throw".

In my opinion, Brian's example and mine above are more 3-D than throwing a ball at a ball on the ground. When you throw at a ball on the ground, it appears to go a lot to the right because of the rebound off the ground.

It's all about the Direction of the Throw.

ldeit

ideit

you are not doing the throw ball drill correctly. Since the right wrist remains bent, it can't be thrown. The ball drops out of the hand to the correct spot as the right wedge travels down its swing path. The ball drops without a rebound. This keeps the right hand from unbending and having a clubhead throw away drill.

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by Burner

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

Ahh.. but here in lies the TRUTH about club throwing.

In order to actually have the club fly straight at the target, you must release at the bottom of the swing arc. If you release any time later, then you will pull the club left. In effect, if you want the club to fly at the target, one must let go at the furthest "down" point in the swing.

Wrong! If you released the club at the bottom of the arc you would just throw it into the ground.

I'm sorry, but physics says I'm right. Motion is always linear in a tangent to where the object is released.

quote:
To throw the club down the fairway would involve you hanging onto it until it reaches parallel to the ground on the forward swing.

It's that very thought that causes people to throw it behind them instead of in front of them.

quote:
Yet, club throwing has NOTHING to do with ball striking - it is merely a drill used by some to give students a feeling for a full swing, and complete release, of the club; and in THAT endeavour it is successful.

What components of the release in throwing are different than swinging? What components are different for power packages and accumulators? Even the aiming points are the same.

 

[njmp2]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

quote:Originally posted by Burner

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

Ahh.. but here in lies the TRUTH about club throwing.

In order to actually have the club fly straight at the target, you must release at the bottom of the swing arc. If you release any time later, then you will pull the club left. In effect, if you want the club to fly at the target, one must let go at the furthest "down" point in the swing.

BURNER: Wrong! If you released the club at the bottom of the arc you would just throw it into the ground.

RINGER: I'm sorry, but physics says I'm right. Motion is always linear in a tangent to where the object is released.

You are right -- physics is correct (althought I doubt it talks to you) So if motion does travel in a straight line from release point and you release the club at the bottom of the arc,(your words were: one must let go at the furthest "down" point in the swing. BURNER is correct, it will travel into the ground. Gotta love the correctness of physics.

After looking at the vids of the club throwing, it really looks like you are steering the club to sail straight forward to the fairway ( I don't want to say the down, like down the fairway and confuse anyONE and it doesn't look like your regular swing in any speed.
Steering is bad. Now, if you stand on a good 'ol Ben Doyle milk crate and throw the club into the ground by releasing the club at the bottom of said arc, you and physics would reign accurate.

 

[Ringer]

What direction are your hands traveling at their lowest point? Toward the target or torward the ball? NOT from your perspective.. but from a third parties?

At what point do you let go of a string with a rock for it to fly off to an intended target?

"According to Newton's first law of motion, a moving body travels along a straight path with constant speed (i.e., has constant velocity ) unless it is acted on by an outside force. For circular motion to occur there must be a constant force acting on a body, pushing it toward the center of the circular path. This force is the centripetal force." - Encyclopedia.com

Here is a diagram..

The blue line is the circular path of the hands. The black arrow represents the centripetal force. The green line is fictitious centrifugal force, and purple dot is the club handle. The pink arrow is the direction of the clubs inertia. The diagram on the left is correct. One would think that the red arrow on the right diagram is the direction of clubs inertia, when in fact it is the pink.

As you can see.. if we want to make the club go DOWN.. then we must release it at the third parallel. If we want it to go to the target, we must release it PRECISELY at the bottom. Burner and you are incorrect.

 

[EdZ]

You don't want completely down, nor completely forward - you want the best combination of BOTH (as far as pure 'force' is concerned)

Down (lag) gives you margin for error (accuracy)
forward gives you efficient power towards your target

The venturi effect comes into play, which means that you really end up with the 'best' place to be at somewhere between completely DOWN and HALFWAY between completely down, and forward (45 degrees).

To put it simply - ALWAYS - More down than forward

So your release point is about 22 degrees from left arm parallel to the ground on the downswing. That is my understanding anyway, but I'd love to learn more if that isn't what Homer intended.

Perhaps a more simple way to state the question is:

What is the angle of the endless belt with the ground?

Or even simpler...

Where is your aiming point? Where are you directing FORCE?

Great thread