A controversial subject

[ej20]

Hogan said the action of the right arm and hand through the impact area was similar to an infielder throwing half underhand,half sidearm to first after scooping up a ground ball.

Would that be considered an upward or downward force?Maybe neither.It sounds to me he's trying to direct the force forward,parallel to the ground.Let the loft on the club get the ball in the air.

 

[njmp2]

quote:Originally posted by ej20

Hogan said the action of the right arm and hand through the impact area was similar to an infielder throwing half underhand,half sidearm to first after scooping up a ground ball.

Would that be considered an upward or downward force?Maybe neither.It sounds to me he's trying to direct the force forward,parallel to the ground.Let the loft on the club get the ball in the air.

Yes, but DOWN. Not just forward , not just outward. But all three. Down allows the clubface to work as designed.

 

[Burner]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

quote:Originally posted by Burner

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

Ahh.. but here in lies the TRUTH about club throwing.

In order to actually have the club fly straight at the target, you must release at the bottom of the swing arc. If you release any time later, then you will pull the club left. In effect, if you want the club to fly at the target, one must let go at the furthest "down" point in the swing.

Wrong! If you released the club at the bottom of the arc you would just throw it into the ground.

I'm sorry, but physics says I'm right. Motion is always linear in a tangent to where the object is released.

quote:
To throw the club down the fairway would involve you hanging onto it until it reaches parallel to the ground on the forward swing.

It's that very thought that causes people to throw it behind them instead of in front of them.

quote:
Yet, club throwing has NOTHING to do with ball striking - it is merely a drill used by some to give students a feeling for a full swing, and complete release, of the club; and in THAT endeavour it is successful.

What components of the release in throwing are different than swinging? What components are different for power packages and accumulators? Even the aiming points are the same.

Ringer
You are a master of the incomplete and out of context argument - indeed, I sometimes wonder just to what extent you will go in your attempts to impress us all with your self-styled genius.

In order for you to ingest a little accurate physics knowledge I am posting the following from which you will see that you ARE wrong; yet again. Please read it carefully.

quote:
Source: Allrefer.com Encyclopedia

Centripetal Force and Centrifugal Force, Physics

centripetal force and centrifugal force, action-reaction force pair associated with circular motion. According to Newton's first law of motion, a moving body travels along a straight path with constant speed (i.e., has constant velocity) unless it is acted on by an outside force. For circular motion to occur there must be a constant force acting on a body, pushing it toward the center of the circular path. This force is the centripetal ("center-seeking") force. For a planet orbiting the sun, the force is gravitational; for an object twirled on a string, the force is mechanical; for an electron orbiting an atom, it is electrical. The magnitude F of the centripetal force is equal to the mass m of the body times its velocity squared v 2 divided by the radius r of its path: F=mv2/r. According to Newton's third law of motion, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The centripetal force, the action, is balanced by a reaction force, the centrifugal ("center-fleeing") force. The two forces are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction. The centrifugal force does not act on the body in motion; the only force acting on the body in motion is the centripetal force. The centrifugal force acts on the source of the centripetal force to displace it radially from the center of the path. Thus, in twirling a mass on a string (or swinging a golf club - Burner's insertion), the centripetal force transmitted by the string pulls in on the mass to keep it in its circular path, while the centrifugal force transmitted by the string pulls outward on its point of attachment at the center of the path. The centrifugal force is often mistakenly thought to cause a body to fly out of its circular path when it is released; rather, it is the removal of the centripetal force that allows the body to travel in a straight line as required by Newton's first law. If there were in fact a force acting to force the body out of its circular path, its path when released would not be the straight tangential course that is always observed.

 

[Powerdraw]

quote:Originally posted by Burner

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

quote:Originally posted by Burner

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

Ahh.. but here in lies the TRUTH about club throwing.

In order to actually have the club fly straight at the target, you must release at the bottom of the swing arc. If you release any time later, then you will pull the club left. In effect, if you want the club to fly at the target, one must let go at the furthest "down" point in the swing.

Wrong! If you released the club at the bottom of the arc you would just throw it into the ground.

I'm sorry, but physics says I'm right. Motion is always linear in a tangent to where the object is released.

quote:
To throw the club down the fairway would involve you hanging onto it until it reaches parallel to the ground on the forward swing.

It's that very thought that causes people to throw it behind them instead of in front of them.

quote:
Yet, club throwing has NOTHING to do with ball striking - it is merely a drill used by some to give students a feeling for a full swing, and complete release, of the club; and in THAT endeavour it is successful.

What components of the release in throwing are different than swinging? What components are different for power packages and accumulators? Even the aiming points are the same.

Ringer
You are a master of the incomplete and out of context argument - indeed, I sometimes wonder just to what extent you will go in your attempts to impress us all with your self-styled genius.

In order for you to ingest a little accurate physics knowledge I am posting the following from which you will see that you ARE wrong; yet again. Please read it carefully.

Source: Allrefer.com Encyclopedia

Centripetal Force and Centrifugal Force, Physics

centripetal force and centrifugal force, action-reaction force pair associated with circular motion. According to Newton's first law of motion, a moving body travels along a straight path with constant speed (i.e., has constant velocity) unless it is acted on by an outside force. For circular motion to occur there must be a constant force acting on a body, pushing it toward the center of the circular path. This force is the centripetal ("center-seeking") force. For a planet orbiting the sun, the force is gravitational; for an object twirled on a string, the force is mechanical; for an electron orbiting an atom, it is electrical. The magnitude F of the centripetal force is equal to the mass m of the body times its velocity squared v 2 divided by the radius r of its path: F=mv2/r. According to Newton's third law of motion, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The centripetal force, the action, is balanced by a reaction force, the centrifugal ("center-fleeing") force. The two forces are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction. The centrifugal force does not act on the body in motion; the only force acting on the body in motion is the centripetal force. The centrifugal force acts on the source of the centripetal force to displace it radially from the center of the path. Thus, in twirling a mass on a string, the centripetal force transmitted by the string pulls in on the mass to keep it in its circular path, while the centrifugal force transmitted by the string pulls outward on its point of attachment at the center of the path. The centrifugal force is often mistakenly thought to cause a body to fly out of its circular path when it is released; rather, it is the removal of the centripetal force that allows the body to travel in a straight line as required by Newton's first law. If there were in fact a force acting to force the body out of its circular path, its path when released would not be the straight tangential course that is always observed.

oh my pops, you on a roll!!![8D][]

 

[Burner]

Hi Son,

Yup!

I wonder what he is on?

 

[Powerdraw]

quote:Originally posted by Burner

Hi Son,

Yup!

I wonder what he is on?

thanks for the H-I-one reply...keep it up pops!

 

[njmp2]

quote:Originally posted by Burner

Ringer
You are a master of the incomplete and out of context argument - indeed, I sometimes wonder just to what extent you will go in your attempts to impress us all with your self-styled genius.

In order for you to ingest a little accurate physics knowledge I am posting the following from which you will see that you ARE wrong; yet again. Please read it carefully.

quote:
Source: Allrefer.com Encyclopedia

Centripetal Force and Centrifugal Force, Physics

centripetal force and centrifugal force, action-reaction force pair associated with circular motion. According to Newton's first law of motion, a moving body travels along a straight path with constant speed (i.e., has constant velocity) unless it is acted on by an outside force. For circular motion to occur there must be a constant force acting on a body, pushing it toward the center of the circular path. This force is the centripetal ("center-seeking") force. For a planet orbiting the sun, the force is gravitational; for an object twirled on a string, the force is mechanical; for an electron orbiting an atom, it is electrical. The magnitude F of the centripetal force is equal to the mass m of the body times its velocity squared v 2 divided by the radius r of its path: F=mv2/r. According to Newton's third law of motion, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The centripetal force, the action, is balanced by a reaction force, the centrifugal ("center-fleeing") force. The two forces are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction. The centrifugal force does not act on the body in motion; the only force acting on the body in motion is the centripetal force. The centrifugal force acts on the source of the centripetal force to displace it radially from the center of the path. Thus, in twirling a mass on a string (or swinging a golf club - Burner's insertion), the centripetal force transmitted by the string pulls in on the mass to keep it in its circular path, while the centrifugal force transmitted by the string pulls outward on its point of attachment at the center of the path. The centrifugal force is often mistakenly thought to cause a body to fly out of its circular path when it is released; rather, it is the removal of the centripetal force that allows the body to travel in a straight line as required by Newton's first law. If there were in fact a force acting to force the body out of its circular path, its path when released would not be the straight tangential course that is always observed.

Good job Burner, so it isn't just me.

Explaned this to him on 9/5/04.
http://d4358519.s74.snitz.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1061&whichpage=2

 

[Ringer]

Do you even know what a TANGENT is? When you do find out.. re-read what you posted.

 

[njmp2]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

Do you even know what a TANGENT is? When you do find out.. re-read what you posted.

Re-read. Your tone is childish. Smug. You have an over inflated sense of worth. So sorry we are just a bunch of idiots unworthy of your presence. Maybe we should take a STRAIGHT LINE away from you.

Do you even know what a humility is? When you do find out.. re-read what you posted.

 

[ldeit]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ldeit

Brian's image above is very good.

Another using the same idea is to imagine you are standing on a sheet of plexiglas propped about 3 feet above the ground. There is a large hole cut in the plexiglas where the ball would be located.

From the top of the backswing throw, a ball down and out, down plane through the hole in the plexiglas. As Brian said, its all about the "Direction of the Throw".

In my opinion, Brian's example and mine above are more 3-D than throwing a ball at a ball on the ground. When you throw at a ball on the ground, it appears to go a lot to the right because of the rebound off the ground.

It's all about the Direction of the Throw.

ldeit

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



ideit

you are not doing the throw ball drill correctly. Since the right wrist remains bent, it can't be thrown. The ball drops out of the hand to the correct spot as the right wedge travels down its swing path. The ball drops without a rebound. This keeps the right hand from unbending and having a clubhead throw away drill.



njmp2,

Who said you are throwing your right wrist? You are throwing a ball and the right wrist can stay bent.

ldeit

 

[Ringer]

My attitude came about in response to yours. I admit I have gotten a tad bit smug but that's due to your persistence on being ignorant and trying to teach incorrect physics.

 

[Ringer]

I'll post this for those of you who really want to understand what I'm trying to say and are a bit confused..

tan·gent [tánj#601;nt]
n (plural tan·gents)
line or surface that touches another: a line, curve, or surface that touches another curve or surface but does not cross or intersect it

Ball rolling on a table is a good way to think about it. The plane of the table is tangent to the sphere of the ball. In a swinging situation, the direction an object will fly is in a straight line tangent to the point where it was released.

 

[njmp2]

Silly us, you were talking about release like in letting go off the club so it can sail out to the fairway when we thought you were talking about releaseing the club as a golf term, into the ball- impact. Silly us. Should have figured that out since you have uneducated hands, but smart forearms

Regardless of all your definitions, and I'd have to say most, if not all, know what a tangent is, basic High School stuff, you are still wrong about the direction of the club during release (impact), among other things.

Being arrogant, brash, and a self proclaimed know it all, only works in the movies.

I won’t speak for others but with you coming across as the savior of this web site, all high and mighty leaves a bad stink. I know there is nothing you can teach me about physics, geometry, or the golf swing. Come down off the horse.

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by njmp2

I know there is nothing you can teach me about physics, geometry, or the golf swing. Come down off the horse.

How ironic. Anyone who claims to know 'everything', knows nothing at all IMO. How about instead of attacking each other, we learn from each other. If nothing else, perhaps Steve can teach you to TEACH what you know about physics, geometry, and the golf swing. So clarify what your view is and perhaps everyone can learn something, since you seem to think you can stop learning and know it all. Who is on that horse again?

Perhaps you can start with answering my question:

what is the ideal angle of the endless belt with the ground?

 

[EdZ]

Some time in all of your education perhaps you will learn that attacking people doesn't help anyone learn a thing. But hey, you like the view from that horse of yours now don't you. You must see a lot of movies too.

 

[MizunoJoe]

The problem with this idea of throwing clubs at the target is that if that were your objective, you would not use a golf stroke to do it. Conversely, if you were constrained to doing it with a golf stroke, how would you be able to let go of the club at just the right moment after the both arms straight position and send the club straight at the target?

 

[Burner]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

The problem with this idea of throwing clubs at the target is that if that were your objective, you would not use a golf stroke to do it. Conversely, if you were constrained to doing it with a golf stroke, how would you be able to let go of the club at just the right moment after the both arms straight position and send the club straight at the target?

Same way as a Hammer thrower in athletics; but it requires precision timing.

And, for Ringers benefit, once the Centrepital force being exherted on the Hammer, or Golf Club, during its circular frame of reference is broken the object flies off in a straight line (at a tangent) away from the arc it was travelling on.

So, releasing the Centrepital force at the lowest point of the golf swing arc will have the club fly directly into the ground and not down the fairway.

Sorry to labour the point but sometimes its necessary. Nevertheless, I'm through with it now.

 

[Ringer]

Mizuno.. great question. And I can see how things might seem that way. For this I only submit the possibility that you CAN strike a ball on the ground AND throw the club at the target. I have attempted to do it, and have found that when I first started to do BOTH, I pulled the club way left and the ball would generally have a lot of cut spin or pull as well. But the more I started to accomplish both, the straighter both went. It may not be a "Golf Stroke" by definition at that point, but that is not my point. My point is that the two motions are so similar that in fact one could overlay the other with both are executed properly.

I guess no one really KNOWS until they try it.

And just to answer your last question.. you actually let go of the club just prior to the follow through portion of the golf swing unless you do something with hand manipulation. Sounds vaguely familiar to the golf stroke.

 

[holenone]

The first of Homer Kelley's 24 Stroke Components is The Grip (Basic). This describes the physical act of 'taking hold' of the Club. The last of the 24 Components is The Release, and this describes the figurative act of 'releasing' the Club.

From The Top, the true and proper direction for Club to move is Down Plane -- Down Plane to Full Extension -- regardless of its incidental appearance of moving forward (2-K). For The Truth, grab a left and right handful of mayonnaise and grip a weedcutter or garden hoe. Now address an imaginary Ball and make your best swing. ["Be the Ball." -- Bill Murray ] The weedcutter will not fly downrange toward the target. Instead, it will fly straight into the ground, probably directly at the Target Line and well behind the Ball.

This is God's Plan.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

quote:Originally posted by njmp2

I know there is nothing you can teach me about physics, geometry, or the golf swing. Come down off the horse.

What is the ideal angle of the endless belt with the ground?

The 'Endless Belt' is the Hands executing their On Plane Straight Line Delivery Path (10-23-A). Therefore, the ideal Angle -- in fact, the only angle -- of the Endless Belt is the Plane Angle. And because of its Zero Shift, that Plane Angle would ideally be the Turned Shoulder Plane Angle (10-6-B). That Turned Shoulder Plane's absolute degree of angle from the horizontal will vary from Player to Player and from Club to Club. Hence, the absolute angle of the Endless Belt will also vary.