A controversial subject

[njmp2]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

This is what happens when ignorant people believe they know everything. They belittle and patronize the people who suggest an open mind.

Holenone - Thank you for your contribution as well as others who took the PROPER way of responding to the proposed idea.

hahah Proper? I guess that means bowing down in agreement. First you say throw down the fairway and then just a little bit in front of the ball. Which is it? NEVER answered that JACK.

If I remember Holenone didn't think much of the club throwing idea either. And that down is down not out. Spin away Ring spin some more.

What a ....

 

[Ringer]

And the fact that I'm complimenting his approach even though he disagree's with me shows how blinded you are by your lust for my degridation. In no way are "proper" and "agree" correlated.. but you just jump to that conclusion anyway.

I didn't have enough time to responsd since I watched the recording of the presidential debate... JACK. I'm sorry if my working for 14 hours today and not feeling like answering your question first off hurt your feelings. But grown ups like me can't always play with you kids.

I've always taught AT the target. Just as Manuel de la Torre teaches. I believe forward circular motion is all that needs to be said. It's not linearally to the target. The swing is circular, and once the club is let go of, it moves linearally. Don't manipulate the facts to make a contradiction where there is none. Why do you think I felt it important to point out exactly what the target was? It's the same distinction I make with all of my students when they attempt the drill. I am not looking for them to make it go UP in the air and fly to the target.. I want them to throw it AT the target. Not at a spot above the target.

Circular motion when put in the context of space time travels down and out just as HK says. It is always important to note from WHO'S perspective the motion is occuring on. Since YOU are the center of the swing, it (the swing.. not the clubhead) travels circularly around your body on an angular plane. From your perspective this can be viewed as either down and out, or as one big arc. As I go through TGM I see that this in fact is presented as one of the possible delivery paths. You can just as easily make the club move in a series of straight lines. I prefer the former over the latter due to certain physics involved and the ability for there to be increased velocity for a longer period of time as well as the ability to remove tension from the swing. When linear movement is made instead of circular, a great deal of control and timing is necessary... and it's quite easy to loose it. A true swinging motion would be much more repeatable once it is fully felt and understood.

Going back to where the club goes. As I said.. you throw it AT the target. Unfortunately gravity tends to change the trajectory. That's fine. That doesn't change where you are trying to make it go. It's the same as any pitcher throwing a baseball. If you ask him where he aims his curve ball, it's not ABOVE the plate... it's at the mit of the catcher... no matter how much arc the ball will have. The same holds true for the drill. You throw the club at the target no matter what gravity does to the club. If you had been paying attention to what I was saying and asking questions about it, perhaps you would have understood this. Instead you choose more persecution.

 

[Mathew]

This thread is starting to get pathetic, I cannot be bothered reading through with a fine tooth comb on who started what. Hurling insults is something I used to be a party to but only now do I keep everything somewhat more in perspective as what is the point ?

We all come to these forums for discussion, to challenge your ideas against others. What it is not is a place for half-baked drivel which is of no use to anyone. Debates are always carried with a sence of dignity and the a real concept people need to learn about forums is that no one declares a winner. You will NEVER win and NEVER lose a debate here if you are persistant enough to keep spouting on. When ppl loose focus of this is when insults start flying because they will never get the prize....they never win and feel they should.

I have no ill will against anyone here with exception of one person (who rarely posts here (smiles)) and but it has a basis of justification of which my reaction is warrented which transcends any justification you can manufacture for this, what can only be explained as 'verbal vomit'....

 

[njmp2]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

And the fact that I'm complimenting his approach even though he disagree's with me shows how blinded you are by your lust for my degridation. In no way are "proper" and "agree" correlated.. but you just jump to that conclusion anyway.

I didn't have enough time to responsd since I watched the recording of the presidential debate... JACK. I'm sorry if my working for 14 hours today and not feeling like answering your question first off hurt your feelings. But grown ups like me can't always play with you kids.

I never wait for you, you have nothing to offer. BTW: LUST?

quote:
I've always taught AT the target. Just as Manuel de la Torre teaches. I believe forward circular motion is all that needs to be said. It's not linearally to the target. The swing is circular, and once the club is let go of, it moves linearally. Don't manipulate the facts to make a contradiction where there is none.

This has nothing to do with the target but where the released club goes if you let go of it when released
- which is in the ground just beyond the ball. But you used the term -release to mean "when I let go of the club" not when the hands release the clubhead at impact.

quote:
Why do you think I felt it important to point out exactly what the target was? It's the same distinction I make with all of my students when they attempt the drill. I am not looking for them to make it go UP in the air and fly to the target.. I want them to throw it AT the target. Not at a spot above the target.

Circular motion when put in the context of space time travels down and out just as HK says. It is always important to note from WHO'S perspective the motion is occuring on. Since YOU are the center of the swing, it (the swing.. not the clubhead) travels circularly around your body on an angular plane. From your perspective this can be viewed as either down and out, or as one big arc. As I go through TGM I see that this in fact is presented as one of the possible delivery paths. You can just as easily make the club move in a series of straight lines. I prefer the former over the latter due to certain physics involved and the ability for there to be increased velocity for a longer period of time as well as the ability to remove tension from the swing. When linear movement is made instead of circular, a great deal of control and timing is necessary... and it's quite easy to loose it. A true swinging motion would be much more repeatable once it is fully felt and understood.

Whoa- Your horse is dumping the Dingy Moore beef stew all over the tee box, Champ.

quote:

Going back to where the club goes. As I said.. you throw it AT the target. Unfortunately gravity tends to change the trajectory. That's fine. That doesn't change where you are trying to make it go. It's the same as any pitcher throwing a baseball. If you ask him where he aims his curve ball, it's not ABOVE the plate... it's at the mit of the catcher... no matter how much arc the ball will have. The same holds true for the drill. You throw the club at the target no matter what gravity does to the club. If you had been paying attention to what I was saying and asking questions about it, perhaps you would have understood this. Instead you choose more persecution.

The whirling of your spin -wow- maybe you are dizzy. Hitting down has zip to do with gravity. The whole point was whether you throw the club out to the fairway or as you should do- DOWN, which would not allow the club to travel out to the fairway. All your misdirection and spin on this doesn't cover up that fact.

Ask you questions about something wrong? Ask questions like you are the teacher and we are the students? Not from you. Did I miss the memo where you are in charge of education on this forum?

Gravity effects the tossed club to hit the turf when throw. Yup You are correct. But that has nothing to do with anything. SPIN SPIN SPIN

 

[EdZ]

quote:

Yes, my appologies for not knowing all the proper lingo.

The downward angle of attack, although I would also be curious to know the outward angle 'feel' as well, how far 'out to the right' it feels and at what point 'downward' would be considered ideal under the limits I posed.

Thanks Lynn - EZ

quote:

Originally posted by Holenone

I thought so. Therefore, since my original reply to your question ("What is the ideal angle of the Endless Belt?") assumed you were referring to its Angle of Attack, a.k.a. the Delivery Path Attack Angle, it still stands:

"The 'Endless Belt' is the Hands executing their On Plane Straight Line Delivery Path (10-23-A). Therefore, the ideal Angle -- in fact, the only angle -- of the Endless Belt is the Plane Angle. And because of its Zero Shift, that Plane Angle is ideally the Turned Shoulder Plane Angle (10-6-B). That Turned Shoulder Plane's absolute degree of angle from the horizontal will vary from Player to Player and from Club to Club. Hence, the absolute angle of the Endless Belt will also vary."

In other words, Plane Angle determines the Angle of Attack. As the 'ideal' Plane Angle steepens (as it must from Long Clubs to Short), so does the ideal Angle of Attack, and so does the ideal Angle of the On Plane Endless Belt.

Your follow-up question above asked that I address the Angle of Approach ("Outward Feel") as well and imposed three contraints:

1. Constant Left Shoulder to Ball angle;

2. Constant Impact Hands Location;

3. Ball Position adjusted for Clubshaft Length.

Unfortunately, Constraints #1 and #2 are incompatible with #3. That is because Constraint #3 necessitates a variable Ball Location, and this always produces a change in Contraints #1 and #2. The further Back the Ball is played, the greater is the separation between the Low Point and Impact Point Plane Lines. And the further forward the Ball is played, vice versa. Therefore, as the Ball is moved back toward the Right Foot, this necessarily produces a greater Clubshaft Forward Lean (and corresponding changes in the Left Shoulder to Ball Angle and Impact Fix Hand Location) in order to comply with the In-Line alignments of the Left Arm Flying Wedge (6-B-3-0-1).

So, in answer to your question, the "Outward Feel" will vary with Ball Location (because that determines the Angle of Approach). The further back the Ball is played, the more inside-out is the Endless Belt Approach Angle (Delivery Path Approach Angle). The "Downward Feel" will also vary (because the Plane Angle determines the Angle of Attack). As the Plane Angle steepens, the more Downward is the Endless Belt Attack Angle (Delivery Path Attack Angle). Study 2-N-0 and 7-23.

As always, I greatly appreciate your response Lynn. I'm still not sure that I've been clear enough on my question though, so perhaps I'll phrase it another way, as it relates to the flail.

As a hypothetical - if you had a completely verticle plane/plane angle, with a fixed center from which a flail swung perfectly verticle, in plane, with two hinges below the fixed center, all hinge motion on plane:

with a pure swinging motion, even tempo, (pendulum) the flail would stay straight, there would be no hinging and the flail would swing back and through as if one solid radius

If you change the ratio/tempo of the backswing to forward swing to 3 to 1 by putting a force directly against the first hinge below center you have created hinge motion at the change of direction, you have created LAG and the two lower sections of the flail would be out of line until a point on the forward motion where the hinge/flail would again be straight, and eventually pass the 'in line' condition.

The angle of the force applied would change at what point the flail would be straight again (as does the tempo/change of direction ratio).

At what point in the circle would you/Homer consider the best place for the flail to be straight, and what would the required angle of force on the first hinge be?

 

[diggerdog]

Does anybody remember the Texas Death Match between Tora Tanaka and Mr. Wrestling II? Or Mr. Wrestling I (Tim Woods) verus #2? Just thinking, that's all.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ
[br

As always, I greatly appreciate your response Lynn. I'm still not sure that I've been clear enough on my question though, so perhaps I'll phrase it another way, as it relates to the flail.

As a hypothetical - if you had a completely verticle plane/plane angle, with a fixed center from which a flail swung perfectly verticle, in plane, with two hinges below the fixed center, all hinge motion on plane:

with a pure swinging motion, even tempo, (pendulum) the flail would stay straight, there would be no hinging and the flail would swing back and through as if one solid radius

If you change the ratio/tempo of the backswing to forward swing to 3 to 1 by putting a force directly against the first hinge below center you have created hinge motion at the change of direction, you have created LAG and the two lower sections of the flail would be out of line until a point on the forward motion where the hinge/flail would again be straight, and eventually pass the 'in line' condition.

The angle of the force applied would change at what point the flail would be straight again (as does the tempo/change of direction ratio).

At what point in the circle would you/Homer consider the best place for the flail to be straight, and what would the required angle of force on the first hinge be?

[Bold by Holenone/Yoda.]

Thanks to Digger's 'death match' wake-up call, let me answer your question in a way that will benefit more readers of this site:

The Golfer's Flail (2-K) will reach Full Extension, i.e., go from Level (4-B-1) to Uncocked (4-B-3), an inch or two past Impact. The Thrust of the Stroke will continue Downplane (toward the Plane Line) until the Right Elbow has Fully Straightened.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Diggers "Death Match"????

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by diggerdog

Does anybody remember the Texas Death Match between Tora Tanaka and Mr. Wrestling II? Or Mr. Wrestling I (Tim Woods) verus #2? Just thinking, that's all.

This "Digger's Death Match", Brian!

How he figured out I was born in Texas (Nacogdoches), I'll never know!

 

[EdZ]

At what point on the plane line is the thrust directed to ensure that both arms straight occurs just past impact?

In the example I gave, what would the angle of the flail be with the ground when it returned to its fully in line condition?

 

[efnef]

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by diggerdog

Does anybody remember the Texas Death Match between Tora Tanaka and Mr. Wrestling II? Or Mr. Wrestling I (Tim Woods) verus #2? Just thinking, that's all.

This "Digger's Death Match", Brian!

How he figured out I was born in Texas (Nacogdoches), I'll never know!

Hail Fredonia!
http://www.nacanowhere.com/fredonia/fredonia.html

Uh, and thanks, Mathew, for expressing what many of us here feel. I'm just trying to make heads or tails of a lot of the data presented here. The bickering just further complicates things.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

At what point on the plane line is the thrust directed to ensure that both arms straight occurs just past impact?

In the example I gave, what would the angle of the flail be with the ground when it returned to its fully in line condition?

[Bold by Yoda/Holenone.]

The Follow-Through (8-11) defines the Full Extension of both Arms, and it does not normally occur "just past Impact." Instead, what does occur is the Full Extension of the Primary Lever Assembly -- the Left Arm and Club (the Golfer's Flail) -- as the Right Elbow remains Bent.

The Point of Thrust necessary to ensure both the above conditions is the Ball (when its Location agrees with the unique Straightaway Flight requirement of the Golf Club being used) or alternatively, a compensating Aiming Point (6-E-2).

Regarding the angle of the Flail with the Ground, Full Extension (Angular Momentum per 2-K #2) occurs theoretically at Low Point, and the Flail would be perpendicular (90 degrees) to the Plane Line. However, in practice, the actual angle to the Plane Line -- the Forward Lean -- is dependent upon (and therefore determined by) the Shoulder-To-Ball Angle of the Left Arm Flying Wedge at Impact Fix.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by efnef


Hail Fredonia!
http://www.nacanowhere.com/fredonia/fredonia.html

Thanks 'for the memories', efnef. My grandparents lived on South Fredonia just down from the Grace Baptist Church! And let's not forget...

Davy Crockett passed through and livened things up at the Old Stone Fort on his way to The Alamo. Should've stuck around... [8D]

 

[EdZ]

Just to clarify, Homer assumes the flail begins at the left shoulder joint? If so, how does he account for the shoulder line in the physics of the flail? It could be argued that the flail begins in the RIGHT shoulder at the other extreme, and that the downward thrust of the right shoulder is the 'driving force'.

But in either of those cases, there is no STABLE CENTER for the flail to be fixed to, unless it is the point in the center of the shoulder line, and the flail of force, the first 'link' in the flail is not a body part, but a line in 3 dimensional space from the center of the shoulder line to PP1 - in which case both arms straight past impact is EXACTLY when the true flail of force is again in line.

I remain open to being convinced otherwise, but your statement of:

-- is dependent upon (and therefore determined by) the Shoulder-To-Ball Angle of the Left Arm Flying Wedge at Impact Fix.

Would seem to support my position of 'hugging' the 'first link' of the flail, as would the added benefit of ensuring the ball is long, long gone before true throw away could occur. All of the impact conditions Homer described would still hold true, but this removes the question of:

However, in practice, the actual angle to the Plane Line -- the Forward Lean -- is dependent upon (and therefore determined by) the Shoulder-To-Ball Angle of the Left Arm Flying Wedge at Impact Fix.

In other words, it is the hands to shoulder line relationship, the hands (PP1) moving around the fixed center between the shoulders/base of the neck.

I'm not trying to discredit Homer, or anyone else, just trying to understand something that doesn't add up about the left shoulder being the begining of the flail - the lack of a stable center to create true rotational force

Thanks - EdZ

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

Just to clarify, Homer assumes the flail begins at the left shoulder joint? If so, how does he account for the shoulder line in the physics of the flail? It could be argued that the flail begins in the RIGHT shoulder at the other extreme, and that the downward thrust of the right shoulder is the 'driving force'.

But in either of those cases, there is no STABLE CENTER for the flail to be fixed to, unless it is the point in the center of the shoulder line, and the flail of force, the first 'link' in the flail is not a body part, but a line in 3 dimensional space from the center of the shoulder line to PP1 - in which case both arms straight past impact is EXACTLY when the true flail of force is again in line.

I remain open to being convinced otherwise, but your statement of:

-- is dependent upon (and therefore determined by) the Shoulder-To-Ball Angle of the Left Arm Flying Wedge at Impact Fix.

Would seem to support my position of 'hugging' the 'first link' of the flail, as would the added benefit of ensuring the ball is long, long gone before true throw away could occur. All of the impact conditions Homer described would still hold true, but this removes the question of:

However, in practice, the actual angle to the Plane Line -- the Forward Lean -- is dependent upon (and therefore determined by) the Shoulder-To-Ball Angle of the Left Arm Flying Wedge at Impact Fix.

In other words, it is the hands to shoulder line relationship, the hands (PP1) moving around the fixed center between the shoulders/base of the neck.

I'm not trying to discredit Homer, or anyone else, just trying to understand something that doesn't add up about the left shoulder being the begining of the flail - the lack of a stable center to create true rotational force

Thanks - EdZ

My answers have assumed the Scientific Principles and Terminology of The Golfing Machine and are correct within that context.

Though I hoped otherwise, I suspected a hidden agenda in your line of questioning and am not surprised to see it surface. If you wish to redefine the Flail (and you apparently do) as an ethereal 'line in three-dimensional space' connecting the Center of the Shoulder Turn to the #1 Pressure Point -- or from the Right Foot to the #3 Pressure Point, for that matter -- then be my guest. My only request is that, in the future, please inform me of any non-TGM compliant personal definitions in advance of an extensive discussion and not in arrears.

 

[EdZ]

My only agenda is to learn more, and to help others learn more, about playing great golf. If TGM can do that, I'm all for it, 100%. I have nothing to hide, nobody to discredit. This left shoulder flail bit makes no sense to me, and I'm respectfully seeking your wisedom on the matter.

So if 'redefine' in your book means asking about something in TGM that makes no sense to me, then yes, I am redefining. Whatever you want to call it, I seek to understand, and this seems a very critical point to understand. The flail is the core of the entire swing. I have no argument at all with the basic science presented by Homer. In fact, the science supports my view.

So in the spirit of learning, convince me why Homer had it right and the shoulder line isn't considered part of the flail, only the left shoulder? It makes no sense unless you have a left arm only stroke with zero pivot or shoulder turn and only right arm thrust. Efficient rotational motion must have a stable center.

 

[Ringer]

Holenone - I'm quite sure I read in TGM somewhere where the line was able to be drawn from the center of the shoulders to the hands. I am quite confident I read this, but I need to do some more looking to find it again. When I do, I'll be sure to post it.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

My only agenda is to learn more, and to help others learn more, about playing great golf. If TGM can do that, I'm all for it, 100%. I have nothing to hide, nobody to discredit. This left shoulder flail bit makes no sense to me, and I'm respectfully seeking your wisedom on the matter.

So if 'redefine' in your book means asking about something in TGM that makes no sense to me, then yes, I am redefining. Whatever you want to call it, I seek to understand, and this seems a very critical point to understand. The flail is the core of the entire swing. I have no argument at all with the basic science presented by Homer. In fact, the science supports my view.

So in the spirit of learning, convince me why Homer had it right and the shoulder line isn't considered part of the flail, only the left shoulder? It makes no sense unless you have a left arm only stroke with zero pivot or shoulder turn and only right arm thrust. Efficient rotational motion must have a stable center.

[Bold by Holenone/Yoda.]

My mission on this site is to teach the Principles and Procedures of The Golfing Machine, not to convince others that their own concepts are invalid (though that is often the unavoidable by-product of the mission). And 'rededfining' is not "asking about something in TGM that makes no sense to me." Instead, it is conciously rejecting a straightforward tenet of TGM and replacing it with one's own.

This is what you have done with The Golfer's Flail, and as I've said, I have no problem with that. But let's tell it like it is and be upfront about it before asking someone -- namely me -- to invest time answering a question you knew full well in advance would not -- indeed, could not -- be answered according to your own undisclosed definition. [B)]

That said, I will address your question as to why Homer did not include the shoulder line as part of the Flail.

The Golfer's Flail -- the Left Arm and Club -- is the Primary Lever Assembly (6-A-2) that ultimately applies Force to the Ball. It is attached to the Body at the Left Shoulder. Pivot Lag -- Body Power for Swingers and Launching Pad for Hitters -- is the 'gear train' that uses multiple Centers (Shoulders, Hips and Knees) to extend the Swing Radius of the Flail to any point from the Shoulder Turn to the Feet (6-C-0). However, this 'gear train extension' is not the Flail itself. It is the mechanism by which the Flail is accelerated.

Now, if the above explanation of The Golfer's Flail "makes no sense" to you, well...it makes no sense (to you). I've done my job, i.e., I've 'informed and explained' to the best of my ability, and you have chosen to reject the concept. Fine. As I've said, if you want to consider the Flail as an ethereal 'line of force' in three-dimensional space from the mid-point of the shoulders to the Hands, then that is your decision. Just know that it is not the TGM concept, and the burden of proof, therefore, is on you, not me.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

Holenone - I'm quite sure I read in TGM somewhere where the line was able to be drawn from the center of the shoulders to the hands. I am quite confident I read this, but I need to do some more looking to find it again. When I do, I'll be sure to post it.

Save yourself some time, Ringer. It ain't there. Promise. [8D]

You may be referring to the Delivery Path discussion in 7-23, i.e., the Hands sensing the Clubshaft in relation to the various Delivery Lines. Check it out.

 

[Ringer]

I was about to post it.. heh.. 2-J-3 and 7-23 with the "SPOKE" analogy.

How does this NOT fit with what EdZ is saying? As well as it's application in 10-23-E.