EdZ, I seem to recall this same discussion with you 3-4 months ago. It really isn't practical or prudent to buy in to only some of the ideas, and refute others and Adlib. You say you grasp physics, but you continue to support a swing centered somewhere around the sternum.Be careful not to turn off a great resource to this site. He might not be as patient as others have been? I have thouroughly enjoyed the knowledge Holenone has imparted and I shudder at the thought of this discussion heading down the same road the last one went down. Some six people tried to explain it, to no avail. Please be careful!
A controversial subject
- Thread starter Ringer
- Start date
- Status
Let me reverse the question, Ringer:
How does it fit with what EdZ is saying? What possible connection could you be seeing between the Hands Tracing one of the Line Delivery Paths (a Zone #3 Plane consideration) and even a correctly conceived Golfer's Flail (a Zone #2 Power consideration)?
As the italicized words in my prior response indicated, the only reason I thought you might be referring to 7-23 is because the words 'Hands' and 'Line' were also used by EdZ to explain his concept. But, a 'line' of ethereal force connecting the Hands -- specifically the #1 Pressure Point -- with the middle of the Shoulders (for Power) has nothing to do with the Hands -- specifically the #3 Pressure Point -- Tracing one of the Straight Line Delivery Paths through Impact (for Accuracy).
With all due respect Lynn, you defend TGM based on science and then ignore it.
A rotational FORCE needs a stable CENTER.
I completely understand what the 'pivot train' is you/Homer describe but it is not based on science of a rotational force needing a stable center, nor is it allowing for the complex anatomy of the human body in generating said force vectors of an object held in both hands.
If you insist on keeping your analysis strickly to the letter of TGM, than I have to say I can only conclude that TGM is incorrect in this area. As much as it appears to Homer that the left shoulder is the begining of the flail, it simply can not be and be an effective, efficient rotational force because it MOVES. The left shoulder is simply another hinge in the flail. A perspective difference to be sure. As I said, one can argue the flail begins in the RIGHT shoulder too, but neither of those cases account for the needed stable center of an efficient rotational force. The only one that does is a center point between the shoulders. This also explains hitting vs. swinging, pull vs. push and many of the other 'do one or the other' parts of TGM. It also explains why both arms straight is a KEY position, and Homer knew that.
If you look at almost any good swing, you can trace a circle of the hands, around the center point I am talking about, base of the neck, between the shoulders.
If the body is the 'pivot train' as you say, than how do you account for a hitter's motion where the right arm thrust is the mechanism of thrust?
Lynn - if my perspective makes no sense to you, I appologize for wasting your time, and that of anyone else who feels I am incorrect. I'm not here to piss anyone off, or to discredit anything, simply to learn and contribute to better understanding.
A rotational FORCE needs a stable CENTER.
I completely understand what the 'pivot train' is you/Homer describe but it is not based on science of a rotational force needing a stable center, nor is it allowing for the complex anatomy of the human body in generating said force vectors of an object held in both hands.
If you insist on keeping your analysis strickly to the letter of TGM, than I have to say I can only conclude that TGM is incorrect in this area. As much as it appears to Homer that the left shoulder is the begining of the flail, it simply can not be and be an effective, efficient rotational force because it MOVES. The left shoulder is simply another hinge in the flail. A perspective difference to be sure. As I said, one can argue the flail begins in the RIGHT shoulder too, but neither of those cases account for the needed stable center of an efficient rotational force. The only one that does is a center point between the shoulders. This also explains hitting vs. swinging, pull vs. push and many of the other 'do one or the other' parts of TGM. It also explains why both arms straight is a KEY position, and Homer knew that.
If you look at almost any good swing, you can trace a circle of the hands, around the center point I am talking about, base of the neck, between the shoulders.
If the body is the 'pivot train' as you say, than how do you account for a hitter's motion where the right arm thrust is the mechanism of thrust?
Lynn - if my perspective makes no sense to you, I appologize for wasting your time, and that of anyone else who feels I am incorrect. I'm not here to piss anyone off, or to discredit anything, simply to learn and contribute to better understanding.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Ed...
Where in the HECK, in the 25,676,934 words that Lynn Blake/Yoda/Holenone has taken the time and effort to write to explain G.O.L.F. to all of the golf world with a computer and a desire to learn, has he EVER talked about NOT HAVING a stable center?
With all due respect to you Ed, I have had the pleasure of having Lynn PERSONALLY teach me Homer's ideas with MY "SWING" as the Guinea Pig.
His KEY idea was to NOT HAVE my center bobbing and weaving all over dodge.
Thanks Lynn....
Where in the HECK, in the 25,676,934 words that Lynn Blake/Yoda/Holenone has taken the time and effort to write to explain G.O.L.F. to all of the golf world with a computer and a desire to learn, has he EVER talked about NOT HAVING a stable center?
With all due respect to you Ed, I have had the pleasure of having Lynn PERSONALLY teach me Homer's ideas with MY "SWING" as the Guinea Pig.
His KEY idea was to NOT HAVE my center bobbing and weaving all over dodge.
Thanks Lynn....
Look, Ed, this is a free forum, and you are entitled to your opinions and have every right discuss them. Likewise, other participants can choose to agree with or debate those opinions. That's the whole purpose of this forum and why it is so named.
My only 'problem' here is that you asked me to answer very specific, detailed questions regarding the Flail -- which I did -- and then blindsided me with your 'revelation in arrears' that my efforts were essentially for naught because they were based on the 'wrong' Flail, i.e., the TGM Flail (and not your own). Hence, the waste of time. Further, I was not given the opportunity to choose whether or not I wanted to respond to your questions based on your personal concept of the Flail. Which I don't. Nothing personal, understand; it's just not why I'm here.
Anway, no big deal. You contribute a lot to this forum and others, and I appreciate your efforts. We'll meet again and no doubt wrangle away on another topic. Meanwhile...
You hit it with your Flail, and I'll hit it with mine.
Brian, I don't think anyone said anything about not needing a stable center? The question is center of WHAT? and the answer is center of the SWINGING FORCE. If what we have in that swinging force is essentially a flail, it is important to know how that relates to the body and how it genterates and supports that swinging force around that stable center.
Lynn - the reason I asked the questions the way I did was to understand your view without regard to the body, but only the flail, only in regard to the rotational swinging force. I'd like to get back to that.
Can we agree on the following?:
1) The golf swing is the efficient generation and application of a rotational force - sustain the line of compression
2) efficient rotational force needs a stable center
3) the flail is the description of a golf swing in its most basic form
If we can again limit the discussion to the flail, in the hypothetical verticle plane I laid out previously, then perhaps we can both agree on what efficient force is/means.
As mentioned before, the ideal application of force by a flail would occur at the point in a circle where the in line condition was met again - agreed?
The relative tempo of the backswing vs. forward swing defines how much lag exists - if a 1 to 1 ratio, you have a pendulum. agreed?
The application and direction of force at a given point (hinge) of the flail will also influence when that in line condition will occur again - agreed?
EdZ, Nobody quotes "the Rock and string" more than you, unfortunately your perception of this analogy is incorrect.
rock=clubhead
origin of string = left shoulder
string=shaft and arm
Therefore, left shoulder would be center of swinging rock.
The center of the swinging rock and the center of your body are not the same. Once you can get past that I think you'll be on your way to a better understanding Ed. Good luck!
rock=clubhead
origin of string = left shoulder
string=shaft and arm
Therefore, left shoulder would be center of swinging rock.
The center of the swinging rock and the center of your body are not the same. Once you can get past that I think you'll be on your way to a better understanding Ed. Good luck!
Corky - what is your definition of a pendulum? You might want to think about why clocks use a pendulum.
As for your last post, I've given specific reasons to support my view, none of which have been refuted by anything other than "because Homer said so" and the areas which SHOW my view is correct, are dismissed or glossed over such as:
However, in practice, the actual angle to the Plane Line -- the Forward Lean -- is dependent upon (and therefore determined by) the Shoulder-To-Ball Angle of the Left Arm Flying Wedge at Impact Fix.
IF the left shoulder were the begining of the flail, for it to be effecient rotational force it would need to STABLE.
Answer this question:
Why is that true?
As for your last post, I've given specific reasons to support my view, none of which have been refuted by anything other than "because Homer said so" and the areas which SHOW my view is correct, are dismissed or glossed over such as:
However, in practice, the actual angle to the Plane Line -- the Forward Lean -- is dependent upon (and therefore determined by) the Shoulder-To-Ball Angle of the Left Arm Flying Wedge at Impact Fix.
IF the left shoulder were the begining of the flail, for it to be effecient rotational force it would need to STABLE.
Answer this question:
Why is that true?
At my last recollection, the shoulder is attached to the spine and top of the sternum by the scapula and clavicle. So, how could left shoulder be any more or less stable than the top of sternum? They're integrated!
As, for the tempo malarky having anything to do with lag, I'm embarrassed for you. That statement concludes that you believe faster tempo = more lag. And that is not so my friend and you could never support that. If the right wrist retains it angle at impact you will have lag at a 1:1 ratio or a 1:5 ratio of backswing to downswing. That is how you support an argument. Not with another question or invention of new terminology (ADLIB). Thank you!
As, for the tempo malarky having anything to do with lag, I'm embarrassed for you. That statement concludes that you believe faster tempo = more lag. And that is not so my friend and you could never support that. If the right wrist retains it angle at impact you will have lag at a 1:1 ratio or a 1:5 ratio of backswing to downswing. That is how you support an argument. Not with another question or invention of new terminology (ADLIB). Thank you!
Yes, you only have so much right arm length, that much is true.
And both hands (pp1 to be more precise) are at their farthest point away from the swing center at both arms straight, not at impact agreed?
When your arms are both straight and you are holding a club, your hands are centered, it is the only place they can be - agreed?
As for your first question/statement - go look at any top player and find the one point that stays the most stable during the entire motion - hint - it isn't the left shoulder.
I said that a 1 to 1 tempo back and through = no lag - go make a swing with a 1 t 5 ratio and stay in balance (i.e. obey the physics of effecient force) and actually make contact with the ball - I bet you can't do it, can you. Why because the flail would not be in line at the right time if you had a true SWINGING force and hinge action. You would have to move center or you'd never hit it. In golfing terms, you'd be too quick and 'stuck'.
Ed,
PP #1 is it's max length from the left shoulder(swing center) whenever the left arm is straight and the left wrist is flat. This is the condition at impact, and throughout the swing until after the both-arms-straight-condition past separation when the left arm bends.
When both of your arms are straight and you are holding a club, the hands location depends on whether the left wrist is bent, flat, or arched.
PP #1 is it's max length from the left shoulder(swing center) whenever the left arm is straight and the left wrist is flat. This is the condition at impact, and throughout the swing until after the both-arms-straight-condition past separation when the left arm bends.
When both of your arms are straight and you are holding a club, the hands location depends on whether the left wrist is bent, flat, or arched.
First of all, my quoted response above was made while you were still asking questions and before you disclosed your own "view." So, at the time, there was no "view" to "support," "dismiss," or "gloss over."
Further, my comment was quite specific and did not "gloss over" anything. You asked what angle the Flail (the assembly of Left Arm and Club) makes with the ground when it gets In Line (given a vertical plane of motion). I replied that the theoretical answer was 90 degrees since the Flail gets In Line at Low Point (and therefore with Zero Forward Lean per 2-K #2).
But we seldom locate the Ball at Low Point. We locate it behind Low Point. Hence, from a practical standpoint, the Flail usually gets In Line well before Low Point, thus creating a Forward Lean of the Left Arm Flying Wedge (the Left Arm and Clubshaft) and an angle greater than 90 degrees. That precise angle is dependent upon the degree of Forward Lean at Fix. And that is exactly what I said.
Specifically, the degree of "Flail Lean" at Full Extension (In Line) will be determined by the distance the Left Hand must move (from its Impact Fix Location) as the Wrist completes its Uncocking Motion (from Level to Uncocked).
I see, so now it's time to trash me rather than counter the argument with valid supporting evidence?
Mizunojoe - yes, and when the left arm bends, how is it you still have a 'law obiding' rotational force? Because the right arm is straight. The hands travel in a circle around the swing center. They travel INSIDE the circle defined by the max radius available - when both arms are straight - in a whip/lag motion - TO both arms straight.
At least I hope we can all agree on the importance of the both arms straight position.
Mizunojoe - yes, and when the left arm bends, how is it you still have a 'law obiding' rotational force? Because the right arm is straight. The hands travel in a circle around the swing center. They travel INSIDE the circle defined by the max radius available - when both arms are straight - in a whip/lag motion - TO both arms straight.
At least I hope we can all agree on the importance of the both arms straight position.
Ok, lets try this from another angle. Low point.
By definition, low point means the FARTHEST from center that the rotational force obtains (regardless of its orientation to the ground) - full radius
The HANDS are at their farthest point away from the body, and hence the swing center, when both arms are straight. The club is in the hands, hence the clubhead is, by definition, farthest away from center at both arms straight. That is, unless there is bending/arch of the wrists.
Agreed?
- Status