A controversial subject

[njmp2]

The swing center is determined by the geometry of the swing circle not the body which will turn and shift throughout the swing. So if it is the circle of the swing, the center will find itself to be the left shoulder because that will be the low point of the circle, a smidgen to the left of the ball. A ball BTW that trusts both the body and the circle to be correct. It gets embarrassed flying off to the right or in the brink when its wrong.

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not copyrighted 2004 -- just an opinion posted freely on a forum. Heck it might be wrong for pete's sake.

 

[corky05]

njmp2, that was very eloquent and succinct. I could have said the same thing, but it would have taken 20 pages. Its a curse.

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

Ed...

Where in the HECK, in the 25,676,934 words that Lynn Blake/Yoda/Holenone has taken the time and effort to write to explain G.O.L.F. to all of the golf world with a computer and a desire to learn, has he EVER talked about NOT HAVING a stable center?

With all due respect to you Ed, I have had the pleasure of having Lynn PERSONALLY teach me Homer's ideas with MY "SWING" as the Guinea Pig.

His KEY idea was to NOT HAVE my center bobbing and weaving all over dodge.

Thanks Lynn....

I know i'm comming back to this abit late... but what I see here is a contention of what is described as the CENTER OF THE FLAIL. Indeed, if the flail is the left arm and a stable center is required for that motion, the truley there is a contradiction since the left shoulder moves quite fiercely. If the center is instead described as being the sternum while the arms are simply two apparatuses which connect to be an extended radius, then the flail analogy still is in tact without a loss of Homers principles.

 

[Ringer]

EdZ... I may point out here.

In order for a Flail to be activated, does it not need force? Can that force not be in the form of a lever attached to it's center pin?

The shoulders then could act as a "lever" where the lever's central pivot is the spine. At one end of the lever, is the pin which serves as the center pin of the flail.

I see arguments quite applicable for both sides of this. However, there CANNOT be a true statement that the center pin of the flail is stable unless we have Zero pivot. This would be the only condition where we can make the "Swing center" the left shoulder. HK quite clearly itterated this when he spoke about the stablized head and the benefits of having one.

In effect, I agree with you EdZ, but I also agree with the flail being the left arm under the TGM definition. Perhaps HK could have extended the information to include this point of view, and in fact I would argue he possibly did in 7-23. Just not so far as to make it a description of body parts since in fact it would require an "imaginary" link to create the radius. Since that link is not in the form of a body part, it would be difficult to catalog it.

 

[bcoak]

quote:Originally posted by corky05

EdZ,
"Copyright EdZ 2004 All Rights Reserved" Until there becomes a great demand for "How not to swing correctly books", I think your pretty safe not to worry about the copyright protection. Thank God its golf and not medicine. You wouldn't be able to afford malpractice insurance.
I consider it quite audacious to solicit " EdZ drills" on someone elses sight. And the fact that twenty people on two different occasions have politely told you, you have this concept all screwed up and you cannot accept it. I think if you feel you know it all maybe its time to launch your own sight. I am at this sight because I want to learn the golf swing from people who subscribe to a swing theory steeped in TGM fundamentals. Thats what Brian teaches, thats what I'm here to learn. If you provide thoughts consistant with that, great! If you don't, maybe your input is counterproductive. I don't think it always is, but, I think it is on this occasion and you've been dressed down on this same concept before. It gets old Ed! Its exhausting. Please, give it a break!

well said. i'm sure you will get the pity act in response however.

 

[Ringer]

quote:Originally posted by corky05

EdZ,
"Copyright EdZ 2004 All Rights Reserved" Until there becomes a great demand for "How not to swing correctly books", I think your pretty safe not to worry about the copyright protection. Thank God its golf and not medicine. You wouldn't be able to afford malpractice insurance.
I consider it quite audacious to solicit " EdZ drills" on someone elses sight. And the fact that twenty people on two different occasions have politely told you, you have this concept all screwed up and you cannot accept it. I think if you feel you know it all maybe its time to launch your own sight. I am at this sight because I want to learn the golf swing from people who subscribe to a swing theory steeped in TGM fundamentals. Thats what Brian teaches, thats what I'm here to learn. If you provide thoughts consistant with that, great! If you don't, maybe your input is counterproductive. I don't think it always is, but, I think it is on this occasion and you've been dressed down on this same concept before. It gets old Ed! Its exhausting. Please, give it a break!

There are so few people here that would say EdZ does not contribute a lot to this board. Even if he has a slightly varied view of something that is in TGM, that does not instantly make all his views invalid. The generalization crap really pisses people off. Success is success. If someone gets it from EdZ, Brian, Yoda, me, or Chuck... then who are you to say they are teaching "how to not swing correctly". I think we can all agree that Leadbetter has some ideas that we wouldn't teach ourselves. But his success is undeniable. For his students what he teaches is correct. But you aren't one of his students.

Furthermore EdZ obeys almost every line in "The Golfing Machine" with his aproach to the mechanics of the swing. To have a disagreement about a "theoretical" point is commonplace anywhere you go. To dismiss his idea's because of something which only exists in theory and is so easily viewed in other ways, is "couner-productive". Open your eyes and see for yourself what happens. If you disagree fine. But say so and leave it at that. Don't go on a rant about how someone is performing malpractice and make direct personal attacks on them. That's the worst thing anyone can do. It only pisses people off and shuts them down to what you have to say and it only makes YOU look bad.

 

[EdZ]

njmp2 and corky - you guys need to learn a simple concept. If you don't like it, don't read it, don't use it, I don't care one bit. I appreciate people who contribute something beyond attacking what they clearly do not understand, or care to understand. If you want to provide conversation or debate a point, that's great, I welcome it. If you are just going to be a%$*#*s, than you contribute nothing and really need to grow up.

If I can not get through to you that the swing center, the center of the ROTATIONAL FORCE you create and apply in the swing, can NOT be the left shoulder, because it MOVES and a rotational force needs a stable center, I urge you to go look at your cars wheels and ponder what happens when they are not balanced properly.

FL-John and Armourall (and Lynn) - thank you for your civil debate, I do appreciate it. I have no problem with agreeing to disagree.

If you didn't rotate the shoulders, and only swung with your left hand/arm - the left shoulder would be the swing center. In the case you mention Armourall, if you let go with your right hand AND stopped your shoulder motion, you would in effect have a left shoulder center, a left arm only swing. However the force you have generated won't let that happen. If you continue your shoulder rotation through, the FORCE that is moving around the swing center would still be around a between the shoulders center. One of the reasons that swinging the right shoulder 'under' the chin on the through swing is a good swing key. In fact, a focus simply on swinging the left shoulder under on the backswing, right on the throughswing and Hebron's view of 'having no arms' can be very effective - especially when combined with Morrison's grip and a clear concept of down and aiming point.

FL-John - the position you are in IS the Kundson position, but with axis tilt and right wrist bend. The hands to chest relationship is the same, the angle the left arm makes with the shoulder line is the same (see Hogan at address, and then imagine that position with axis tilt and right wrist bend)

There IS an illusion that the left shoulder is center at impact - why, because it seems logical to assume that - it is in line - and appears to be the flail - but the RIGHT ARM IS NOT YET STRAIGHT.

Go to impact fix, such that you have a straight line with your left arm/club and some bend in the right elbow and right wrist, right shoulder below left (axis tilt) - see the cover of Hogan's Five Lessons for what I am talking about.

Now, in that position, impact. Go to both arms straight. Your arms will be approx 45 degrees to the ground, and the hands/club/chest will once again be in the same 'relative' positions as Hogan's address, or Knudson's.

Whatever you think of my views, please at the very least understand the importance of both arms straight.

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

EdZ... I may point out here.

In order for a Flail to be activated, does it not need force? Can that force not be in the form of a lever attached to it's center pin?

The shoulders then could act as a "lever" where the lever's central pivot is the spine. At one end of the lever, is the pin which serves as the center pin of the flail.

I see arguments quite applicable for both sides of this. However, there CANNOT be a true statement that the center pin of the flail is stable unless we have Zero pivot. This would be the only condition where we can make the "Swing center" the left shoulder. HK quite clearly itterated this when he spoke about the stablized head and the benefits of having one.

In effect, I agree with you EdZ, but I also agree with the flail being the left arm under the TGM definition. Perhaps HK could have extended the information to include this point of view, and in fact I would argue he possibly did in 7-23. Just not so far as to make it a description of body parts since in fact it would require an "imaginary" link to create the radius. Since that link is not in the form of a body part, it would be difficult to catalog it.

Excellent post Steve, a very good summary of the two views.

Homer is talking about how, and I am talking about what. You are creating FORCE and taking it to both arms straight, around the swing center.

Thank you.

 

[njmp2]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

njmp2 and corky - you guys need to learn a simple concept. If you don't like it, don't read it, don't use it, I don't care one bit. I appreciate people who contribute something beyond attacking what they clearly do not understand, or care to understand. If you want to provide conversation or debate a point, that's great, I welcome it. If you are just going to be a&^%$#@s, than you contribute nothing and really need to grow up.

Cork, did we ever call anyone an a*&^%$e? I quess EdZ wants to be allowed to post incorrect information without being call on it.
EdZ is trying to carve himself out a nitch in the internet golf instruction hall of fame and these copyrighted posts will be the foundation for a saleable product. Can't wait! Will our names be in it????? Good Luck EdZ.
And I do contribute - you can't get past the opening without steaming - "How dare he claimed I'm wrong.. huff huff huff..."

A stable center in a golf swing is not the same center of the orbiting clubhead. A stable center in a golf swing is the center of the body, chest, belly, sternum. They line up with a stable head. The center of the orbiting head is different, it moves and ends at the left shoulder at impact.

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The following is un-copyrighted 2004. If an author is so hard up to steal this for publication, he would do better taking from Holenone. Thank God EdZ's is copyright to protect the general public from it.

(call the satire police -njmp2 is at it again)

[B)] <----- ouch Ed

 

[Ringer]

I had a particular sectioned which I was using for my own swing. I suddenly realized that it was in fact the passage I had remember HK remarking about the radius in. I can't believe it didn't come up earlier.

2-H

"The point may be made that it is impossible to inscribe perfect circles while the center is in motion -- that is the turning (left) Shoulder... ....The spine, between the shoulders, is the center of the Shoulder Turn only, not of the Left Arm, except by specific extension of the Swing Radius</u>....Though the "Head" Pivot Center is recommended, it is not at all mandatory."

Study 7-12 and 7-13 and more is said about pivot and shoulder functions.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

I had a particular sectioned which I was using for my own swing. I suddenly realized that it was in fact the passage I had remember HK remarking about the radius in. I can't believe it didn't come up earlier.

The spine, between the shoulders, is the center of the Shoulder Turn only, not of the Left Arm, except by specific extension of the Swing Radius</u>.

[Bold by Holenone/Yoda.]

Ringer,

This has "come up earlier." Go back four pages (to page 6) and my post on 10/14 at 18:56:

"The Golfer's Flail -- the Left Arm and Club -- is the Primary Lever Assembly (6-A-2) that ultimately applies Force to the Ball. It is attached to the Body at the Left Shoulder. Pivot Lag -- Body Power for Swingers and Launching Pad for Hitters -- is the 'gear train' that uses multiple Centers (Shoulders, Hips and Knees) to extend the Swing Radius of the Flail to any point from the Shoulder Turn to the Feet (6-C-0). However, this 'gear train extension' is not the Flail itself. It is the mechanism by which the Flail is accelerated.

 

[EdZ]

Holenone - would you consider it possible that Homer was talking about two distinct concepts - that of the flail as you describe it (and ringer summed up) and that of the 'swing radius' - which is the concept I am talking about? Forgetting anything about body, club, flail for a moment, suffice to say we are creating and applying a force that travels in a circle around the swing center. The creating, and to a certain degree, the support of, that force is dependent on body parts but the path of that force is not - in that it travels in 3 dimensional space in a circle around that swing center. If the force didn't travel around you in a circle, maintaining balance would be quite a challenge. Morrison would call this the 'whirling force'. The best graphical representation would be a tilted wheel with its hub at the base of the neck/between the shoulders swing center (Snead's image, if I recall correctly, and one that Homer talkes about re: the rim vs spoke).

If that is not the case, I would love to learn more about how you view the extension of the swing radius.

 

[corky05]

Hey guys, I've been out of town. My son was playing in an East vs. West golf tournament all weekend. He has turned in to quite the Jr. golfer. I don't know how he could have developed so quickly, had it not been for the copyrighted EdZ training drills, but thats another story for a different day. I see that while I have been away there has been some question as to the approach I took to address that I don't think all that EdZ says is accurate. My thoughts are simple don't just answer these posts to make yourself feel good if its going to harm or confuse the individual who asked the question.
A case in point would be, for example, Don't use an engineering term that applies to liquid and how you can speed its flow by constricting it in a cone-shaped tube. What am I talking about? Read the 3rd paragraph in the quote below. I'm sure he meant Ken Venturi!
I'm not apologizing for calling out crap. You think its a big deal when somebody quotes DeLaTorre or Hogan. I can read a book. I'm on this sight looking for some magic from one of the apostles. If I wanted it the other way I could be down at "Books a Million" drinking a frappacino waiting for next months edition of swing wisdom. Please, I'm not calling him an A--hole. And, I can understand him calling me one. Maybe I am? Or, Maybe, I don't quite see the Emperors New Clothes. 3rd Paragraph/ 2nd page of this discussion, VENTURI EFFECT? Yea! I get it now!

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

You don't want completely down, nor completely forward - you want the best combination of BOTH (as far as pure 'force' is concerned)

Down (lag) gives you margin for error (accuracy)
forward gives you efficient power towards your target

The venturi effect comes into play, which means that you really end up with the 'best' place to be at somewhere between completely DOWN and HALFWAY between completely down, and forward (45 degrees).

To put it simply - ALWAYS - More down than forward

So your release point is about 22 degrees from left arm parallel to the ground on the downswing. That is my understanding anyway, but I'd love to learn more if that isn't what Homer intended.

Perhaps a more simple way to state the question is:

What is the angle of the endless belt with the ground?

Or even simpler...

Where is your aiming point? Where are you directing FORCE?

Great thread

Ken Venturi, Jim Morrison and the Doors, and Paul Hogan of "Crocodile Dundee " fame. I think that where the stable center ideas are coming from.

 

[EdZ]

Yep, I'd say a*&^%$e applies, or was there a point to your post other than you didn't understand mine and rather than ask a question, you assumed you knew something?

Compression, is that a simpler term for you? Do you understand the relationship between the angle of the force, the compression of the ball against the ground and the resulting effects on spin (Venturi effect)?

 

[njmp2]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

Yep, I'd say a*&^%$e applies, or was there a point to your post other than you didn't understand mine and rather than ask a question, you assumed you knew something?

Compression, is that a simpler term for you? Do you understand the relationship between the angle of the force, the compression of the ball against the ground and the resulting effects on spin (Venturi effect)?

The best most respected teachers teach in simple terms and refrain from name calling. Blow hards that have little opinion of themselves and others use complexities to impress and mask a small you-know-what. You EdZ use complexities.

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Still uncopyrighted after all these years.

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by holenone

The Golfer's Flail (2-K) will reach Full Extension, i.e., go from Level (4-B-1) to Uncocked (4-B-3), an inch or two past Impact. The Thrust of the Stroke will continue Downplane (toward the Plane Line) until the Right Elbow has Fully Straightened.

When the "Thrust of the Stroke" has reached "its" full extension (both arms straight) and begins to follow the 'circle' around the swing center, what angle would a line perpendicular to the shoulder line make with the ground according to Homer?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Sorry I, your host, had to delete some responses.

But...

This board will not go down to the name calling level.

My season ends tommorrow and I'll be on the board all the time with my striped shirt on.

This 'debate' about swing center is a decent one, one that is debated in many "golf Instruction Circles."

I will give my opinion in the next post and lets try to be more civil.

Please

 

[Brian Manzella]

I had heard all of the 'middle of the body' swing center stuff long before I became a protege' of Ben Doyle which was 17 years before I met Lynn Blake.

It----mid body swing center----never help me teach before Ben, after Ben or After Lynn.

I personally like the idea of through the head or through the base of the neck with my pupils.

 

[EdZ]

To sum up my view...

The most stationary part of a good player's swing is the base of the neck/between the shoulders point. That SINGLE point of the body IS the center of the ROTATIONAL FORCE that the HANDS (pp#1) trace around this center point. This is at your BACK, not sternum. The 'force' that is created during a swing reaches IT'S maximum distance from the swing center at both arms straight, and the clubHEAD would as well, if we did not position it to hit the ground beforehand, ensuring lag and downward contact.

I'd like to hear your views on this perspective Brian.

Thanks - EdZ

 

[Brian Manzella]

Here is my attempt to unravel your ideas, Edz:

You say: "The most stationary part of a good player's swing is the base of the neck/between the shoulders point."

In my experience...yes.

You say: That SINGLE point of the body IS the center of the ROTATIONAL FORCE that the HANDS (pp#1) trace around this center point.

I think, and Lynn can correct me on this, that these are two different circles. The hand's center is clearly NOT the same as the pivot's.