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EdZ

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Corky - if the left shoulder were the center, wouldn't a more forward ball position require LESS right wrist bend, not more? Wouldn't that require LESS axis tilt, not more?

Do you agree that the farther back the ball, the less axis tilt is needed, and the more forward the ball the more axis tilt is needed?

Think about it.

Where do your hands go after impact, are they flung around your left shoulder, or are they flung around to the middle of your shoulders?
 
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corky05

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I know some people change ball position and others keep it constant. I keep mine constant. I think both are allowable. I just like to make as few adjustments from shot to shot as possible.
Could someone more TGM proficient jump in about Ed saying that you would have to change axis tilt more as you move the ball back in your stance? I've never heard of that and to the contrary, I think if anything, I have the most axis tilt with my Driver? Am I in the minority here?
Ed, I'm stumped! You've thrown so many inconsistancies and inaccuracies into the equation that I think I have vertigo.
In all seriousness, if you approached teaching this way with layman pupils you'll totally impress them Ed! Because who would dare question an instructor who would use a theory about liquid (venturi effect) while instructing them? Golf swing, liquid, hell its all the same!
 
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corky05

New
"lag can exist anywhere in a circle" Thats another Hall of Famer. Thanks for the useful insite. That statement was made with such bravado, I almost believed it, Not! I know! I know! I don't understand.
Manzella, help explain to me how I can have lag with my ring finger hand knuckles facing the deck and my club face pointing to the ground? Do I have any lag at this point, Brian?
I think this is a fair question to pose? If someone makes a statement that might need some clarification so that others don't learn it the wrong way.
Can lag exist anywhere in the circle? Thanks, in advance!
 
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corky05

New
Check this out, first quote; Ball forward requires Less tilt, No wait a minute, thats the first sentence, sorry, second sentence in first quote says," and the more forward the ball the more axis tilt is needed. Sorry, I should have read further my bad!
Holy Shikeys, Batman! Theres a second entirely different quote! Stand by I'll read it!@#$5&^ * ^5%%$##, Huh!
Guys, Ed has asked us to think about it. Hum, O.K. I'm thinking you contradicted yourself and confused another new student! Pretty nice, If you say it both ways you can't be wrong. No! It means you don't know.

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

Corky - if the left shoulder were the center, wouldn't a more forward ball position require LESS right wrist bend, not more? Wouldn't that require LESS axis tilt, not more?

Do you agree that the farther back the ball, the less axis tilt is needed, and the more forward the ball the more axis tilt is needed?

Think about it.
Click to expand...

(Another quote from the genious)
First a basic fact - It is a CIRCLE corky - lag can exist at any point in a circle.

The true low point is UNDER THE GROUND

And yes, it is true that less axis tilt requires a more centered ball position and hence that more forward ball position requires more axis tilt. (End Genious quote)

Can't take much more,must get out of vertigo zone, "Robin,quick toss me Bat Decoder Ring and seek cover. If your not careful you could get pulled into a complete pulsating, throbing, moron glaze!

More or less someone got caught trying to masquerade as an authority!
 
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holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by Ringer

By simplifying the mechanics to a "Spoke of the rim" philosophy, we cut out a lot of the specifics which naturally happen on their own, and we will produce the same motion desired had those specifics been known.

[Bold by Holenone/Yoda.]
Click to expand...
Ringer,

You have combined two completely different Power Package Delivery Path concepts -- Wheel Rim and Wheel Spoke -- into one. You can (1) sense a circular gyroscopic Wheel Rim orbit of the Hands and Clubshaft; or you can (2) sense the Clubshaft as a Wheel Spoke tracing a straight line Wheel Track. Do the former (Swinging) or the latter (Hitting). You cannot do both -- at least not at the same time.

With this new information, please continue your study of 7-23. :)
 
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holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by EdZ

If the left shoulder were the center, wouldn't a more forward ball position require LESS right wrist bend, not more?
Click to expand...

No.

In order to preserve the 90 degree relationship of the Left and Right Arms in the Flying Wedges Assembly, the Right Wrist is more Bent with the Ball Location forward and less Bent with it aft. :)
 
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corky05

New
Holenone, Do I have more tilt with a Driver, or do I just feel like I do, because of my right wrist being more bent? Thanks!
 
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Ringer

New
Sorry holenone.. it was a mis-type. I was hastily responding and I mixed it up without consulting the book as I was doing so.
 
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EdZ

New
quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

If the left shoulder were the center, wouldn't a more forward ball position require LESS right wrist bend, not more?
Click to expand...

No.

In order to preserve the 90 degree relationship of the Left and Right Arms in the Flying Wedges Assembly, the Right Wrist is more Bent with the Ball Location forward and less Bent with it aft. :)
Click to expand...

Lynn - do you agree or disagree that the THRUST, as you put it, continues to both arms straight to a point well ahead of the ball, and UNDER THE GROUND?

Nice lawyerly answer BTW ;) Maintaining the wedges is a big part of explaining my view.

Corky - I know you are confused. Think about Lynn's answer. If you have a circle with a hinge half way between its center and the edge of the circle, when would that radius touch the edge? Answer: Only when it was straight, when there is no bend in the hinge. When it is bent, it wouldn't ever reach to the edge of the circle.

Now, if you look at Lynn's answer, when the ball is back, you have LESS right wrist bend, less of an angle. You also have a more shallow approach to the ball. In the simplest terms, you have a more perfect circle.

If the ball is forward, you have MORE bend, and hence even though it LOOKS like you are touching the edge of that circle, you are really far from it, you only get there when the angles straighten out - at both arms straight. To do that you must turn UNDER that point on your back.

In reality you have impacted the ball WELL before that angle has straightened out, and the more angle you have, the more margin for error you have and the more you ensure your leverage, lag, and downward contact. You can't help but have them because of where impact occurs in the circle. THIS IS WHY RIGHT WRIST BEND IS SO CRITICAL.

You are swinging 'inside' the largest circle your clubhead can make, the farthest point away from center BOTH hands can get - at both arms straight.
 
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corky05

New
Ed, can you blame me for being confused? In one resonse you say ball forward, less right wrist bend and in the next sentence you said, ball forward more wrist bend. Don't you find that confusing?
I'm also confused about how you can have lag throughout the complete circle. Thats what you said, quite emphatically! Can you explain how you have lag at both hands straight or anywhere thereafter? Thanks in advance!
 
bcoak

bcoak

New
I know I've learned one thing during all this, I thought the Venturi effect refered to something Ken Venturi said. :)
 
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holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by EdZ
Lynn - do you agree or disagree that the THRUST, as you put it, continues to both arms straight to a point well ahead of the ball, and UNDER THE GROUND?
Click to expand...

The Thrust of the Stroke always continues Down Plane during the Follow-Through (1-L #15).

However, the Low Point of the Stroke is established at Impact Fix. It may or may not be "under the ground." For example, in a Teed Drive, the Low Point will likely be above the ground, i.e., in the air. For a Putt with a Ball located opposite the Left Shoulder, the Low Point will be on the ground. Only when the Ball is located on the ground (or on a low Tee) behind Low Point -- in other words, a Ball located Up Plane from Low Point -- will the Low Point be under the ground.
 
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EdZ

New
No worries Corky, this isn't obvious. The illusion of the left shoulder center is one of golfs many illusions.

In my post about the forward vs back ball position I first said "if" the left shoulder were the center, not that it was, clearly I have been arguing that it isn't. My appologies for any confusion in that post.

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

Corky - if the left shoulder were the center, wouldn't a more forward ball position require LESS right wrist bend, not more? Wouldn't that require LESS axis tilt, not more?

Do you agree that the farther back the ball, the less axis tilt is needed, and the more forward the ball the more axis tilt is needed?
Click to expand...
 
E

EdZ

New
quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by EdZ
Lynn - do you agree or disagree that the THRUST, as you put it, continues to both arms straight to a point well ahead of the ball, and UNDER THE GROUND?
Click to expand...

The Thrust of the Stroke always continues Down Plane during the Follow-Through (1-L #15).

However, the Low Point of the Stroke is established at Impact Fix. It may or may not be "under the ground." For example, in a Teed Drive, the Low Point will likely be above the ground, i.e., in the air. For a Putt with a Ball located opposite the Left Shoulder, the Low Point will be on the ground. Only when the Ball is located on the ground (or on a low Tee) behind Low Point -- in other words, a Ball located Up Plane from Low Point -- will the Low Point be under the ground.
Click to expand...

We are talking about different things again Lynn. You are talking about low point of the CLUB and I am talking about low point of the FORCE - the thrust of the swing.

One point to ponder re: this force, and its center

"I let my swing balance me" - Moe Norman
 
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holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by EdZ

No worries Corky, this isn't obvious. The illusion of the left shoulder center is one of golfs many illusions.

In my post about the forward vs back ball position I first said "if" the left shoulder were the center, not that it was, clearly I have been arguing that it isn't. My appologies for any confusion in that post.

Originally posted by EdZ

Corky - if the left shoulder were the center, wouldn't a more forward ball position require LESS right wrist bend, not more?
[Bold by Holenone/Yoda.]
Click to expand...

And "if the Left Shoulder were the center," the answer is still 'no.'
 
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holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by EdZ

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by EdZ
Lynn - do you agree or disagree that the THRUST, as you put it, continues to both arms straight to a point well ahead of the ball, and UNDER THE GROUND?
Click to expand...

The Thrust of the Stroke always continues Down Plane during the Follow-Through (1-L #15).

However, the Low Point of the Stroke is established at Impact Fix. It may or may not be "under the ground." For example, in a Teed Drive, the Low Point will likely be above the ground, i.e., in the air. For a Putt with a Ball located opposite the Left Shoulder, the Low Point will be on the ground. Only when the Ball is located on the ground (or on a low Tee) behind Low Point -- in other words, a Ball located Up Plane from Low Point -- will the Low Point be under the ground.
Click to expand...

We are talking about different things again Lynn. You are talking about low point of the CLUB and I am talking about low point of the FORCE - the thrust of the swing.

One point to ponder re: this force, and its center

"I let my swing balance me" - Moe Norman
Click to expand...

Good God...

[xx(]
 
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EdZ

New
We can go in another 'circle' if you want Lynn ;)

How do you explain that there is a need for MORE axis tilt with a forward ball position and for LESS axis tilt with a more centered ball position? How do you explain this in light of the circle example I gave?
 
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holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by corky05

Holenone, Do I have more tilt with a Driver, or do I just feel like I do, because of my right wrist being more bent? Thanks!
Click to expand...

Corky,

I would need to see your actual Address Position. In general, the further Down Plane the Ball is Located, i.e., toward Low Point, the further Down Plane the Right Shoulder must Located at Fix (in order to enable and support the On Plane Right Forearm). However, this whole business of Axis Tilt is almost always way overdone. Study the Centered Head Position and minimal Axis Tilt in Photos 9-2-1 #1, 9-2-2 #1 and 9-2-10 #1.

This is something to really get right, so get in front of a mirror with a Club and look, Look LOOK! per 3-B.
 
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holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by EdZ

We can go in another 'circle' if you want Lynn ;)

How do you explain that there is a need for MORE axis tilt with a forward ball position and for LESS axis tilt with a more centered ball position? How do you explain this in light of the circle example I gave?
Click to expand...

Regarding Axis Tilt, see my reply to Corky above.

Regarding "going around in another circle," thanks, but no thanks. My mission is to help readers better understand The Golfing Machine. I will leave the interpretation of alternative systems (including yours) to those so inclined. :)
 
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