A controversial subject
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quote:Originally posted by holenone
Welcome, everybody, to The EdZ Jumbled Jeopardy Game. And now, here's our host, EdZ!
EdZ: Today's special guest is Holenone. Everybody ready? Here we go! All right, Holenone, what category would you like?
Holenone: I'll take The Golfing Machine.
EdZ: Ah, good choice there, Holenone. First question, Flails for $200, What is the correct angle of the flail to the Ground at full extension?
Holenone: Theoretically, 90 degrees, but in practice, it can vary.
EdZ (Pressing Red Wrong! Buzzer): AAANNNNNNHHH!!! Sorry, Holenone! That's not the Flail I was talking about. Mine is invisible and connects the shoulders with the Hands. Ready for another question?
Holenone: I'll take Low Points for $300.
EdZ: Another good choice! True or False: The Low Point is always under the ground.
Holenone: False. Depends on where you locate the Low Point at Fix.
EdZ (Pressing Red Wrong! Buzzer): AAANNNNNNHH!!!! Wrong again, Holenone, my man. I was talking about the Low Point of The Force, not of the Club. Want to try again?
Holenone: <No response.>
EdZ: I said, Holenone, want to try again? How about 'Circles' for $400?
EdZ's Assistant: Sorry, Mr. Z, but Holenone has left the building. Said something about forgetting an appointment to get a root canal.
Interesting response Lynn, despite the school yard fun that some of the pups here have had, and your encouragement of it with this post, you have still not addressed my points, you have avoided them. "but... but, my answers are correct within the context of TGM" say you.... homer was 'factually' correct (aside from that unstable center to a rotational force that defies the laws of physics, effecient rotational force)
clearly we disagree about the definition and location of flail, Ringer summed this up well, yet you have not addressed the fact that the only TRUE full extension of the swinging 'circular' force is that of both arms straight. It is also clear that while Homer understood its importance, he didn't understand WHY - and that is where the flail I am talking about comes in and explains it. It also explains hitting vs. swinging, and why the mind is in the hands.
This thread was started with a question about club throwing, which can be summed up with "what is the direction of the throw" - or "where are you directing the swinging force" - hence my first question to you, the angle of the flail with the ground, since that angle is important to understand in relation to where you direct force.
All the while, the question of where to direct the force has been ignored by you, but is exactly what I have continued to address.
"at the ball" say you..... "unless it isn't at the ball"... "at the aiming point" say you.... but you can't explain where that is, or why that is where it is, because you are stuck "within the confines and defintions of TGM"....
if you know where the full extension is as it relates to the body (both arms straight), and where the center of that circle is, you can answer the question of where to direct the force to ensure full extension, both arms straight, at the proper angle with the ground, with the proper impact alignments (which I state again, I'd say we agree on - Hogan on the cover of 5 lessons)
Yes Golfie - forces have no low point in and of themselves, but in this context the question is (yet again, unanswered) where do you direct that force so that the circle of your hands around the swing center reaches full extension, both arms straight, at the proper angle to the ground, with the proper impact alignments, ensuring lag.
I've asked you to explain your view using a simple circle with a hinge along its radius, as I did in my post to Corky with my view.
The fact that a more centered ball position requires less right wrist bend, and a more forward ball position requires more supports my view, yet you can't or won't admit that is true. You again insist that "your answers are correct within the context of TGM" - avoiding addressing the point yet again.
And so you, who had appeared above the usual juvenile attack of some, decide that you'd like to play a game, still avoiding answering the question or addressing my point.
Matt - I appreciate your response. No, I'm not interested in being alpha anything, and have said so. I honestly couldn't care less about that, or what some folks think of my perspectives. People can judge for themselves, I don't mind one bit. I've stated before that I am always open to new ideas and perspectives. Some here clearly are not.
EdZ:
I've been out for a bit but have a few questions with your theory:
(1) You say that full extension if at 'both arms straight' and this is where the force should be directed?? Follow up question: How do I know if I am directing the force at the proper angle of approach/attack? I could certainly strive to go to both arms straight, but it could be at an extreme outside-in or inside-out path...
(2) You also say "where do you direct that force so that the circle of your hands around the swing center reaches full extension, both arms straight, at the proper angle to the ground, with the proper impact alignments, ensuring lag"....why would I want to get his complex? I don't mean that rhetorically, but, if I use my right forearm and #3 PP to trace the plane line, I would think I'm already ensuring that the proper anlge, etc is taken care of...as long as I monitor??
(3) {More of a statements here)---as to the aiming point...there is no formula as you say Yoda has not given a precise measurement for why the force is directed at the aiming point...as with all people, are swings and releases/hand speed may vary. Aiming point, to me, is not a science. It is something that needs to be adjusted person to person...just as Homer (and Larry Nelson) speak of setting the clubface open at address to allow for horizontal hinging. This is not a science as to "how much open" it may vary by person or how you are swinging that day.
I understand where you are trying to go, however, at the same time, not sure as well. This thread has gotten pretty cooked so maybe we can just finish er' up!
FL-John
I've been out for a bit but have a few questions with your theory:
(1) You say that full extension if at 'both arms straight' and this is where the force should be directed?? Follow up question: How do I know if I am directing the force at the proper angle of approach/attack? I could certainly strive to go to both arms straight, but it could be at an extreme outside-in or inside-out path...
(2) You also say "where do you direct that force so that the circle of your hands around the swing center reaches full extension, both arms straight, at the proper angle to the ground, with the proper impact alignments, ensuring lag"....why would I want to get his complex? I don't mean that rhetorically, but, if I use my right forearm and #3 PP to trace the plane line, I would think I'm already ensuring that the proper anlge, etc is taken care of...as long as I monitor??
(3) {More of a statements here)---as to the aiming point...there is no formula as you say Yoda has not given a precise measurement for why the force is directed at the aiming point...as with all people, are swings and releases/hand speed may vary. Aiming point, to me, is not a science. It is something that needs to be adjusted person to person...just as Homer (and Larry Nelson) speak of setting the clubface open at address to allow for horizontal hinging. This is not a science as to "how much open" it may vary by person or how you are swinging that day.
I understand where you are trying to go, however, at the same time, not sure as well. This thread has gotten pretty cooked so maybe we can just finish er' up!
FL-John
John - I appreciate that you, unlike Lynn who is avoiding the question, still have an open mind and a willingness to discuss.
Your first point, if you go back to the circle example I gave Corky in explaining ball position and right wrist bend, or to a horizontal swing, you can see that the farthest point away from center the clubhead could possibly be, will always be at both arms straight, and in that position, by definition, your hands will be centered. Miller has a great description of the force being directed to both arms straight "as if both arms are being stretched from their sockets".
Hogan knew the importance of this, take a look at his drill with the upper arms tight against the chest - and one arm always being straight.
The golf swing is, in effect, a whip motion INSIDE this largest possible circle. The only time the clubhead touches the edege of the circle - both arms straight.
Regarding the second question - you don't want to get this complex and that is the point. The AIMING POINT. What I am talking about is why the aiming point is, where it is. Why the 'throw' is directed where it is. Despite what some think, that aiming point IS actually science, and for any given set of parameters (club length, hand speed, ball position, tempo ect) that point will ideally always be exactly the same, that is if you had the ability to maintain the other variables that enter into the equation as constants.
And Lynn - God is an illusion, a bedtime story to make the sheep feel better about what they don't understand, and a way for those sheep to be controled. I could care less if you still want to believe in santa claus or the easter bunny, but please leave religion out of discussions about golf.
God is on the back of your money, Ill send you my address and you can mail them to me. God isn't religion.
Second, it seems if you don't agree with you, we are closed minded. That's rich. And of all pages to cite from the Hogan book, the absolute wrong one. You are like Geogre Castanza. Try doing the opposite to be correct. EdZ baby - throw yourself on the mercey of the forum.
Second, it seems if you don't agree with you, we are closed minded. That's rich. And of all pages to cite from the Hogan book, the absolute wrong one. You are like Geogre Castanza. Try doing the opposite to be correct. EdZ baby - throw yourself on the mercey of the forum.
bcoak
New
EdZ, you need help.
and also, you didnt answer Fl-J's question. What if it is too far inside/outside? If my arms are strapped to my side ala your God, Hogan, that isn't the farthest point since the are being restricted. Farthest point would be if i let them fling off my left side.
truly, ed. get off it.
and also, you didnt answer Fl-J's question. What if it is too far inside/outside? If my arms are strapped to my side ala your God, Hogan, that isn't the farthest point since the are being restricted. Farthest point would be if i let them fling off my left side.
truly, ed. get off it.
robertkhill
New
I hope to GOD that this thread will die soon. What a waste of time.
the question of inside vs. outside is one of the direction/orientation of the circle/wheel. An issue of plane. That is a separate matter from the circle itself, which is on that plane.
bacock - why so threatened? You clearly don't understand what I am saying, nor do you care to. Fine by me.
bacock - why so threatened? You clearly don't understand what I am saying, nor do you care to. Fine by me.
"the farthest point away from center the clubhead could possibly be, will always be at both arms straight, and in that position, by definition, your hands will be centered"
Copyright EdZ 2004 All Rights Reserved
If I understand correctly, the clubhead's farthest point from center will be on an extension of an imaginary line drawn from the center through the hands (with both arms straight). That means the left wrist would be bent at the "low point" of force?
Copyright EdZ 2004 All Rights Reserved
If I understand correctly, the clubhead's farthest point from center will be on an extension of an imaginary line drawn from the center through the hands (with both arms straight). That means the left wrist would be bent at the "low point" of force?
Both arms straight, sure, however, that does not mean that <b>anywhere</b> you have both arms striaght is the ideal direction of the force...as I mentioned in my other post, I could get to both arms straight, but my downswing path could be out to right field, or pulled over to left field...either way, at some point I will get to both arms straight....but if and when I get to both arms straight, I may not be directing the force in the right direction.
I never said 'anywhere' you get to both arms straight, I said that occurs when the arms are approx 45 degrees to the ground, after impact, but ball position is a factor here, as has been discussed in relation to wrist bend.
The force is always on plane, if it is not it is not effecient force.
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