A controversial subject

[corky05]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

Funny thing about circles.... you can only go back and forward around them. Any effort to force the club down will result in either a shift in the "swing center", and extension of the swings radius, or a direction of the force counter to the design of the club.

I know nobody agree's with me here, but it's fact.. so I'll leave it at that.

(EdZ Quote)
Why would you feel that way, I've been very clear about my position of the location of the center of the swings force, and why I feel it is where it is, and have explained why, using a simple circle and the fact that a more forward ball position requires more right wrist bend, and a centered ball position requires less. That the centered ball position represents a more 'complete circle' and a forward ball position represents a circle that is more 'under the ground'.(End Quote)

Originally posted by corky05


If the model for your circle is different than mine, which is possible, mines not really a circle, why or how is it better? It seems like you have to be concerned with the radius changing for one. I can't see how that could be a plus with regards to consistency?
Secondly, I'm not a big circle advocate in the first place. Watson hits it well, kind of "U" shaped, Trevino, flat elliptical. So, funny thing about circles are if they are dictating how you swing ie. back,forward , and around it only applies to your model.(End Quote)

Ringer, I can't see why you and Ed would want to be so transfixed on a circle? You say you can't find anything more ideal than that of circular. Do you swing with zero wrist break and spin on a barstool? Thats the reality of your circle. An ellipse would extend that low point alowing greatest room for error
You were smart enough to figure out that you couldn't have any downward without shifts. Do you have a swing without shifts(barstool)?
Pretty powerless, not very dynamic! Or, do you transfer weight from one foot to another? If you said you transfer weight from one foot to another then your coveted circle is a house of cards.
Look at a merry-go-round on the playground. Well! Static without children pushing it, one axle coming out of the ground and a platform.

This is the ideal for a golf swing?


(Ringer Quote)
The geometry of a circle will cause your coveted "down" movement without any intention but to trace a circular path. Attempting to move the club in one particular direction will cause linear movement within the path of the hands and club. Once you have that a series of shifts must be made in order to direct the club properly down the plane line.

If you notice, the ONLY times where "down" is used in TGM (unless someone can point out to me elsewhere) is either coupled with "out" or in advice to avoid "up". 6-E-2-1

When someone can show me where "forward on a circular path" is not allowed in TGM, then maybe you have a case. I see some particular strokes which do not adhere to this, but I do not find them to be more ideal than that of circular (Unquote)

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

Funny thing about circles.... you can only go back and forward around them. Any effort to force the club down will result in either a shift in the "swing center", and extension of the swings radius, or a direction of the force counter to the design of the club.

I know nobody agree's with me here, but it's fact.. so I'll leave it at that.

Steve - you can swing in straight lines INSIDE a larger circle

 

[corky05]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

You guys are unbelievable. Attempting to skew EdZ position just for simple ridicule. A tactic over used time and time again. Holenone had the decency to stay on subject and answer EdZ questions to the best of his ability.. you guys just go off and start attacking EdZ. The classic TGM turn off tactic. If anyone had just heard of the book and this website, saw the vicious posting on the last few pages, you've pretty much lost them for a "simpler system". You are the demise of your own success. But just keep blaming EdZ for that. Say it's "dis-information" all you want. It just makes you all look unable to form any concievable argument.

And Ringer doesn't have an agenda! How long have you rehearsed that and how many other forums have you used it on?

The moral of the story; TGM supporters you must lay down your pens and keyboards, do not attempt to debate anybody, no matter how inaccurate or lame their claims, because once upon a time there was an overzealous person that supported your claims and offended some people. Unfortunately you will have to concede all arguments and avoid confrontation for life. That includes arguing with people that use "Venturi effect" in combination with golf swing terms or refer to you as an ass---- or try to pirate the forum.

Ringer, don't worry, Ed's positions don't need to be skewed, they arrive that way!

TGM has lost a lot of potential followers for the tone on this forum?
I don't think so? TGM is not in competition. Its not a one size fits all approach, as others are. And a good teacher would not teach TGM,. per se. They would teach their student and the individual student would not neccesarily get a litany of chapters and pages, their swing would just be compliant with those chapters and pages.

Here's the problem. You learned your system, committed it to memory,took 30 minutes, now your bored, and you feel shortchanged. Don't take it out on everybody because you have buyers remorse!

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

You guys are unbelievable. Attempting to skew EdZ position just for simple ridicule. A tactic over used time and time again. Holenone had the decency to stay on subject and answer EdZ questions to the best of his ability.. you guys just go off and start attacking EdZ. The classic TGM turn off tactic. If anyone had just heard of the book and this website, saw the vicious posting on the last few pages, you've pretty much lost them for a "simpler system". You are the demise of your own success. But just keep blaming EdZ for that. Say it's "dis-information" all you want. It just makes you all look unable to form any concievable argument.

Ed and I obviously have different views here. And in holding those views, we find a 'sameness' and also a 'difference.'

The 'sameness' is that we each hold an opinion. I believe that I have a rational view of the Golf Stroke based on science, and that Ed has an irrational view based on his personal version of 'seems as if.' He believes the same thing, of course, only in reverse.

The 'difference' is that I don't demand he accept my view. In fact, I could care less. If he only could bring himself to that same degree of tolerance, the number of flying objects tossed onto his playing field would greatly diminish.

Unfortunately, that seems to be a concession he is simply unwilling -- or unable -- to make.

No Lynn, I am not asking you to accept my view, I am asking you to defend yours with something other than "Because Homer said so". I've shown you my 'circle', now show me yours

As far as rational vs irrational, you are of course entitled to your view, but like our president, insisting that you are correct, does not mean you are correct. The evidence (or lack thereof) speaks for itself. Show me your evidence of why your view is correct and I will gladly either a) learn something or b) agree to disagree with you.

It really is that simple. Use the circle example, the most basic geometry of the swing, as I did to explain forward vs center ball position and how that relates to my view and right wrist bend.

Defend your position Lynn, don't accept mine. Show me the evidence. Don't take things on 'faith' that Homer was correct.

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by EdZ
And Lynn - God is an illusion, a bedtime story to make the sheep feel better about what they don't understand, and a way for those sheep to be controled.

Bravely spoken, O Wise One. But then, I would expect no less from one who understands all.

As for me:

Baah. Baaah. Baaahhhh!

When did I ever claim to know all? Anyone who claims to know all, knows nothing.

As for sheep, I don't mind if you believe in the tooth fairy, I just don't think a golf forum is a place to discuss it, and don't care to be preached to.

Peace

 

[corky05]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

Funny thing about circles.... you can only go back and forward around them. Any effort to force the club down will result in either a shift in the "swing center", and extension of the swings radius, or a direction of the force counter to the design of the club.

I know nobody agree's with me here, but it's fact.. so I'll leave it at that.

Steve - you can swing in straight lines INSIDE a larger circle

Cute, Ed! I like the winky eye. Still hung up on those circles? How's your barstool? Hope you start feelin better?

 

[bcoak]

EEDz"As for sheep, I don't mind if you believe in the tooth fairy, I just don't think a golf forum is a place to discuss it, and don't care to be preached to."

You brought up religion and insulted multiple people!

 

[njmp2]

I was going to make a reference to gay dentistry - not that there is anything wrong with that, but I forgot what for. Hmmm can't remember. Anyway, come on gang, we are lagging behind the Austin chronicles over on fgi.

 

[EdZ]

Corky - don't be a dick. Seriously. I'm not here to convince you of anything. I'm asking ANYONE to defend Homer's view using the 'science' that you all say it is based on (which is sound science), but don't seem to fully grasp the application of.

First, clearly there are several areas being discussed on this thread, and that is part of the problem. Most of you are still talking about the club, and I am, and have always been, talking about the rotational FORCE that you are creatig and applying in the swing.

If we can all agree, I hope, it is that the 'direction of the throw' is a useful bit of information to know.

Can everybody agree about that?

OK - now 'what' are you throwing? The club, the clubhead, the FORCE. You are directing FORCE to sustain the line of compression. The line of compression IS force.

Agreed?

I would ask anyone here to restate what they 'think' my position is, because it is clear to me that many of you don't understand it, but more clear that most of you don't care to. That is fine by me, honestly.

So in relation to FORCE - the THROW - explain where you throw and why. That is a separate question from HOW you throw (which Ringer summed up well).

I do not disagree about HOW I am, and have been, talking about WHAT and WHY.

'Got it'?

 

[corky05]

(EdZ Quote)
No Lynn, I am not asking you to accept my view, I am asking you to defend yours with something other than "Because Homer said so". I've shown you my 'circle', now show me yours (End Quote)

Actually, you have not "shown" the circle! And, I bet you can't! You may think its a circle? Its not, trust me! If you have a weight shift, it will be an ellipse as I've already told you a million times. Still doing the square peg in a round hole, Ed?

Great winky eye, Ed! You'll have your diaper off and you'll be finger painting in your crap in no time at all!

Show me a picture of you golf swing and trace it! No circle! Try ellipse.

Hope you feel better, EdZ!

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by bcoak

EEDz"As for sheep, I don't mind if you believe in the tooth fairy, I just don't think a golf forum is a place to discuss it, and don't care to be preached to."

You brought up religion and insulted multiple people!

No, Ben Hur brought up religion "Good God" brought up religion

That insulted people too. Enough about religion, back to golf please.

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by corky05

(EdZ Quote)
No Lynn, I am not asking you to accept my view, I am asking you to defend yours with something other than "Because Homer said so". I've shown you my 'circle', now show me yours (End Quote)

Actually, you have not "shown" the circle! And, I bet you can't! You may think its a circle? Its not, trust me! If you have a weight shift, it will be an ellipse as I've already told you a million times. Still doing the square peg in a round hole, Ed?

Great winky eye, Ed! You'll have your diaper off and you'll be finger painting in your crap in no time at all!

Show me a picture of you golf swing and trace it! No circle! Try ellipse.

Hope you feel better, EdZ!

Corky, your failure to actually READ is not your first problem.


Dude - READ - what I just said to Ringer. You are swinging INSIDE the largest possible circle, that which has a radius defined from the center, at both arms straight, perpendicular to the shoulder line.

 

[corky05]

What a raving hypocrite!

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

quote:Originally posted by bcoak

EEDz"As for sheep, I don't mind if you believe in the tooth fairy, I just don't think a golf forum is a place to discuss it, and don't care to be preached to."

You brought up religion and insulted multiple people!

No, Ben Hur brought up religion "Good God" brought up religion

That insulted people too. Enough about religion, back to golf please.

 

[njmp2]

EdZ, Cork and njmp2 - what no jobs !!?????!!

 

[corky05]

Too funny! I'm flying out at 3PM won't be back til tomorrow night late. So, beat back all the spine center-perfect circle swingers with caution. They don't fight fair. I've got a new name now. Starts with a "D". I think he really likes me! You know, its just a term of endearment.

 

[EdZ]

corky the spine is not the center of the rotational force!!!!!!! only a single POINT on the spine, between the shoulders, at the base of the neck.

Got it yet?

njmp - yep, I am a programmer, just finished up a new stored procedure, on to the next one.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by lmanzella

Lynn...I apologize for Edz's remark about our Maker (among his other ramblings).

So...one day, your host, Brian Manzella, was watching the AT&T at Pebble Beach on a beautiful day, with Cindy Crawford swinging Callaway Great Big Bertha Titanium Irons....

....It was the day I realized even an atheist had to doubt the 'random probability' theory....

Where there is design, there is a designer.

 

[corky05]

No! Could you elaborate a little more on how you can have lag throughout the entire "circle"? And how are you able to maintain this circle? How come it doesn't elongate into a more forgiving ellipse as you pivot into impact? A circle would only intersect a line a one point. An ellipse would in fact be in contact with a line longer, due to its more optimum shape.
I'm a better visual learner. Any chance of a swing at an angle that we could trace and see if trace line favors your circle, or an ellipse? Thanks.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by corky05
If we are talking about radius change and circles from left shoulder to clubface? I don't think any one has a perfect circle.

Corky is right. And he is right because his facts are right, not "just because Homer said so." Although, for the record, Homer did say so:

"The point may be made that it is impossible to inscribe perfect circles while the center is in motion -- that is, the turning Shoulder."

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by Ringer
You are talking specifically about the tilt of the plane. This might be a much more appropriate location for the term down as we can say we want a steeper or shallower plane. But to use "down" in reverence to the geometry of the circle I absolutely oppose. Unfortunately, that is the very definition it appears HK is trying to make. Down, out, up, around, etc etc..

[Bold by Holenone/Yoda.]

I am talking about a Golf Stroke executed by a person with a Golf Club standing on one side of the Ball or the other. From the Top, the Club must go Down to reach the Ball. The Club must go Out to reach the Ball. The Club must go Forward to reach the Ball.

This is not a hard concept, Ringer.

When all else fails, think!