A controversial subject

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ
Ok, lets try this from another angle. Low point.

By definition, low point means the FARTHEST from center that the rotational force obtains (regardless of its orientation to the ground) - full radius

The HANDS are at their farthest point away from the body, and hence the swing center, when both arms are straight. The club is in the hands, hence the clubhead is, by definition, farthest away from center at both arms straight. That is, unless there is bending/arch of the wrists.

Agreed?

Uh...no.

Not agreed.

1. The terms 'Low Point' and 'Radius' are not interchangeable. The Low Point of the Golf Stroke -- which is what we're talking about here -- occurs when the Stroke Radius (the Left Arm and Club Assembly) points directly at the Ground. This is axiomatic...self-evident...the way things actually are (no matter how we may perceive them to be or wish them to be).

2. The maximum distance of the Clubhead from the Body -- its Left Shoulder or its 'Center' or its whatever -- is detetermined by the length of the Radius. And, as stated, that Radius is the Left Arm and Club. Hence, the Clubhead is at its farthest distance from the Body when the Left Arm is Straight. The condition of the Right Arm -- Straight or Bent -- is irrelevant.

 

[armourall]

EdZ,

Where would the swing center be if the Shoulder Turn was zeroed out?

 

[EdZ]

armourall - if the shoulder turn is zero, you still have a between the shoulders swing center, assuming you have two hands on the club. Do a horizontal swing with no shoulder turn. The left, or right, shoulder can only be the swing center if you just have one hand on the club. Because we have two hands on the club, the center must be the balance between the two - between the shoulders.

Lynn - defending your view by restating it is not defending your view. You must have a STABLE center for rotational force to travel around, or it is not efficient rotational force. Yes? Agreed?

The left shoulder MOVES, and therefore can NOT be the center of the rotational force. Agreed?

This is simple physics.

The hands are at their farthest point away from the body at both arms straight - yes or no?

If you stretch BOTH arms as far from you as you can, they will be in the center of your body - yes or no?

low point is defined as max radius, yes - the term low point is the farthest point away from center that your club can get. Do a horizontal swing out in front of you - where is the club the farthest away from you?

It is only because we position the circle, the rotational force, to HIT THE GROUND BEFORE its true low point that the club doesn't get to its full potential distance away from the body, as in the horizontal swing. Why do we do this? LAG - and its many benefits.

This is part of why down, down, down is so important - both arms straight is so important - you are 'trying' to reach the true max radius of the FORCE you have created - which is under the ground. All the while, you have a rotational FORCE that travels around the swing center - between the shoulder blades at the base of your neck.

 

[FL-John]

EdZ:

I would disagree with a few points...I premise this by saying I do not have all the answers here

(1) When both arms are straight, I would argue that this does not mean they are furthest from our body...unless you tell me which part of our body they are furthest from? If you are speaking of farthest away from 'between the shoulders', I would say halfway in the backswing, my hands are just as far away from my body as they are at both arms straight.

(2)To that same extent, I would need to know a quick answer. You state the the low point is the farthest away from center that your club can get...I disagree. If the club moves in a true circle with the left arm always straight, it is always farthest away from your body as it is moving along the circumference of a cirlce...you also state 'club'...do you mean any part of the club? Clubhead?

FL-John

 

[FL-John]

One more thing...low point may not be the farthest away from center. The low point is the point in which a two dimentional plane (cirlce of swing) touches a line (in our case, planeline).

Again, I am eager to view the discussion, but I would disagree with some of your initial assumptions.

FL-John

(BS in Mathematics)---doesn't make me an expert, just shows that I'm pulling crapola from thin air!

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by FL-John

EdZ:

I would disagree with a few points...I premise this by saying I do not have all the answers here

(1) When both arms are straight, I would argue that this does not mean they are furthest from our body...unless you tell me which part of our body they are furthest from? If you are speaking of farthest away from 'between the shoulders', I would say halfway in the backswing, my hands are just as far away from my body as they are at both arms straight.

(2)To that same extent, I would need to know a quick answer. You state the the low point is the farthest away from center that your club can get...I disagree. If the club moves in a true circle with the left arm always straight, it is always farthest away from your body as it is moving along the circumference of a cirlce...you also state 'club'...do you mean any part of the club? Clubhead?

FL-John

Re: #1 - Yes, on the BACKSWING the left arm most closely defines the radius and on the THROUGHSWING the right arm most closely defines the radius. You see it best at both arms straight. Keep in mind you are swinging, creating a whip like force, 'inside' the maximum possible circle - that of the clubhead at both arms straight.

The best way to see what I mean about both arms straight is to hold a club horizontal. If both arms are indeed straight, your hands will be in the center of your body, and the clubhead will be the farthest possible distance away from your swing center. As for #2, I don't know that I understand what you are asking, but to clarify I am talking about the rotational FORCE that you create and apply in the swing. I read your question as "the left arm is straight" and would add - yes, until it isn't and the right is. Perhaps you can restate your question?

 

[armourall]

EdZ,

Question #2...

Since your swing center is stable (I assume you mean stationary), how does it contribute to centripetal acceleration? (You can't compare it to a rock on a string, since the hand pulling the string inward would have to move in a small circle to produce constant centripetal acceleration.)

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by FL-John

One more thing...low point may not be the farthest away from center. The low point is the point in which a two dimentional plane (cirlce of swing) touches a line (in our case, planeline).

Again, I am eager to view the discussion, but I would disagree with some of your initial assumptions.

FL-John

(BS in Mathematics)---doesn't make me an expert, just shows that I'm pulling crapola from thin air!

Yes, I agree - the low point of the CLUB is never achieved until you are taking your divot (if at all, depending on ball position and axis tilt)

It is only because we position the circular force to hit the ground (ensuring lag). What I am saying is that the actual low point, the point which the circle of the clubHEAD, and its circular force, would truly intersect the true plane line is below the ground.

The only time you could hit a ball at true, full, extension AND at true, full, low point - would be to have basically no axis tilt, and the ball in the dead center of the stance. This would be highly not recommended because it removes the very, very important benefits of the margin for error that LAG gives you. It does explain, however, why folks like Knudson and De La Torre can swing the way they do and hit decent shots - but they have no compression and very little to no lag - two big, big benefits that you certainly want in your swing.

 

[FL-John]

EdZ:

What I mean re: #2 is that I can have both arms straight, although they may not be in the center of my body. If I would 'run out of right arm too early' straightening my right arm prematurely, both arms could be straight but that does not mean that my arms are in the center of my body. I understand where you are going, but still disagree to the certainty of it.

Along your analogy, if I hold both arms straight out in front of myself on a horizontal plane, whilst holding a club...by moving my arms to the right and left of me (although range is limited) I can still have both arms straight and not have them in the center of my body....you can definitely feel a stretch, yet there is some movement away from body center.

 

[EdZ]

Yes, and that stretch is a sign that you really do not have both arms (and their internal muscles etc) actually straight, but you are stretching one side of the triangle or the other.

Armourall - you are pushing/pulling on either side of the flail that is fixed at the center of your shoulders and held in your hands

 

[FL-John]

Ed:

Re#2, what I mean is that, using your analogy, if I grip a club straight out in front of me on a horizontal plane and have both arms straight....I can still keep both arms straight and move the club from side to side, albeit not that much. However, there is still some movement. You might say "that is my point, when the club moves, the shoulders being to move". However, I would think the shoulder rotation/movement is one circle, while the club/clubhead is moving on another circle with a different center. To me, we are speaking of two circles, not just one.

I think that may have been why Homer speaks of Shoulder Turn and Plane Angle (clubshaft movement) as two separate components....sorry, mind started thinking too much while fingers were typing.

FL-John

 

[FL-John]

From EdZ "Yes, and that stretch is a sign that you really do not have both arms (and their internal muscles etc) actually straight, but you are stretching one side of the triangle or the other."

Not always true...you could do this by keeping your arms straight and moving your shoulders.

 

[FL-John]

From EdZ "Yes, and that stretch is a sign that you really do not have both arms (and their internal muscles etc) actually straight, but you are stretching one side of the triangle or the other."

Not always true...you could do this by keeping your arms straight and moving your shoulders.

 

[njmp2]

Ed, you have so many misconceptions about things, I see you are now linking them together.

It is kinda fun to read, especially when you start the next post (and you have so many of these) "I agree..." when you were told you were wrong.

=================
copyrighted sarcasm 2004 Beware of great risk, jeopardy, and peril if used. NOT !

 

[EdZ]

But if you move the shoulders, you move the entire unit, however that isn't the point of the example at all. If you have both arms straight, you have an angle between your shoulder line and each arm. If both arms are straight out in front of you, you have (basically) the same angle between each arm and the shoulder line - with some slight variance because the right hand is lower, farther away, than the left. I am not suggesting that these angles remain constant, only that at full extension of the hands (and hence the club in its true 'in line with center') you have your maximum 'circle'. Agreed you can view the swing as several circles, yes - another perspective.

This horizontal example shows what I mean by 'full extension'.

In the swing, as the right arm bends going back, or the left arm bends coming through - you have that 'first link' moving - which most closely matches the left arm back, and the right arm through - but in reality the FORCE you are swinging around center is between your arms.

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by njmp2

Ed, you have so many misconceptions about things, I see you are now linking them together.

It is kinda fun to read, especially when you start the next post (and you have so many of these) "I agree..." when you were told you were wrong.

=================
copyrighted sarcasm 2004 Beware of great risk, jeopardy, and peril if used. NOT !

You aren't very bright, are you. Are you sure you can you read?

I agree to this definition:

The low point is the point in which a two dimentional plane (cirlce of swing) touches a line (in our case, planeline).

And then further explain that because we want LAG, we position the circle such that the true low point is UNDER the ground.

I'm sorry you are dense, good luck with that.

 

[FL-John]

I still disagree....as you say, the right arm is bent a bit at address, thus moving the center point to the outside of the left shoulder. If you want the center of the body to be your low point and the center of the circle, then you must swing ala De La Torre...

 

[njmp2]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

quote:Originally posted by njmp2

Ed, you have so many misconceptions about things, I see you are now linking them together.

It is kinda fun to read, especially when you start the next post (and you have so many of these) "I agree..." when you were told you were wrong.

=================
copyrighted sarcasm 2004 Beware of great risk, jeopardy, and peril if used. NOT !

You aren't very bright, are you. Are you sure you can you read?

I agree to this definition:

The low point is the point in which a two dimentional plane (cirlce of swing) touches a line (in our case, planeline).

And then further explain that because we want LAG, we position the circle such that the true low point is UNDER the ground.

I'm sorry you are dense, good luck with that.

I was generalizing about your posts. Everytime you get rebuffed, you start off by saying, "I agree...." Its like a child caught making boo-boo. Dense? Oh a mock. hahahah Good One.

 

[corky05]

EdZ,
"Copyright EdZ 2004 All Rights Reserved" Until there becomes a great demand for "How not to swing correctly books", I think your pretty safe not to worry about the copyright protection. Thank God its golf and not medicine. You wouldn't be able to afford malpractice insurance.
I consider it quite audacious to solicit " EdZ drills" on someone elses sight. And the fact that twenty people on two different occasions have politely told you, you have this concept all screwed up and you cannot accept it. I think if you feel you know it all maybe its time to launch your own sight. I am at this sight because I want to learn the golf swing from people who subscribe to a swing theory steeped in TGM fundamentals. Thats what Brian teaches, thats what I'm here to learn. If you provide thoughts consistant with that, great! If you don't, maybe your input is counterproductive. I don't think it always is, but, I think it is on this occasion and you've been dressed down on this same concept before. It gets old Ed! Its exhausting. Please, give it a break!

 

[armourall]

EdZ,

Here's a hypothetical situation to consider: What if the Right Hand was released from the Club at, or just after, Low Point, and the Left Arm was allowed to remain straight (with the absence of Right Arm Checkrein Action) through Follow Through? Would the swing center be the center of the body... or the Left Shoulder? And what fundamental difference(s) would exist between the two swings?