birdie_man
New
Chris,
I'll try to dig up a Hogan video I saw floating around the net that may qualify............(later)...
I'll try to dig up a Hogan video I saw floating around the net that may qualify............(later)...
A great "thru the ball" position/Flat Right Foot (with a Brian Manzella Video Answer)
- Thread starter Jim Kobylinski
- Start date
- Status
birdie_man
New
Just a little clip to at least ponder a bit and fit into the equation.....
Not kept down Kenny Perry long....
But it is pretty well down at impact. I think he's hitting a 7 iron here.....draw- if that means anything and I suspect it could......
http://media.putfile.com/Hogan-7-Iron
Not kept down Kenny Perry long....
But it is pretty well down at impact. I think he's hitting a 7 iron here.....draw- if that means anything and I suspect it could......
http://media.putfile.com/Hogan-7-Iron
davidmac00
New
nice!
nice video birdie,thanks!
nice video birdie,thanks!
Chris Sturgess
New member
A couple things: He's hitting a 3/4 shot in that clip. So like a said earlier his footwork will be more passive because of that. But more importantly, his right foot is up A LOT (I don't actually ever seriously use all caps) in that clip. The picture of Jim's student is at about the same point Hogan is at when you freeze frame the scroller over the P in paintball, his heel is way off the ground there. And also check it out when the scroller is over the s in games, see how it's rolled in and you can see spikes on the outside of the shoe. That's pretty much a mandatory move for a legit weight shift, especially for mid to high handicappers who universally have a tendency to hit weak arm shots off their back foot.
His heel is going in the wrong direction........if it even matters. He is twisting on the ball of his foot.....that is all. Is it wrong??? Who cares????..... as long as the clubface was correct at separation.
The picture is obviously not a world class "right heel" position but does it really matter for this guy as long as he has achieved a ball flight that is worthy of his and his instructior's attention?
The picture is obviously not a world class "right heel" position but does it really matter for this guy as long as he has achieved a ball flight that is worthy of his and his instructior's attention?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Brian Manzella Video Answer (Thank Goodness)
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
When i get back from playing golf i will find and name each picture for you in brady's swing sequences.
There are multiples of them.
birdie_man
New
I can SEE (capital letters for emphasis) that......
But it is not really up at impact.
I SAID (emphasis hehe) "Not down Kenny Perry long."
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Chris Sturgess
New member
Just to be clear though we're not talking about impact here, we're talking about a through the ball postion, that is the title of the thread.
Brian, Moe Norman made 3/4 swings and hit the ball really short. If short and straight is people's goal then I don't have a problem with the right foot staying on the ground forever. But I am assuming distance is at least somewhat of a goal so the hips are going to need to turn more and that is hard to do with the right heel on the ground so that's why I don't think that is a great postion or something that should be strived for.
You can keep your right shoulder back at impact and also have your heel up or at least rolled in. As a matter of fact it helps get the right shoulder back as long the heel doesn't move away from the target, which is of course the opposite of being rolled in. But again we aren't talking about impact we're talking through the ball. If weight has been shifted and the hips are turning then at the halfway through position the heel will likely rise and that is a good thing. Keeping it down is bad for your back too, especially if you aren't flexible, it's a similar situation as on the backswing. You can make a bigger backswing by allowing your left heel to come of the ground and it is easier on your back to do so. The point of keeping the heel down there is of course for resisitance/coil so you can spring back coming down. But on the follow through it's a release of resistance so nothing should be held down. That's mostly what I'm saying.
Tiger, Vijay, Els, Hogan, Nicklaus, etc are all hall of famers and on full swings they all have their right heel off the ground and rolled in plenty in the through the ball position.
Brian, Moe Norman made 3/4 swings and hit the ball really short. If short and straight is people's goal then I don't have a problem with the right foot staying on the ground forever. But I am assuming distance is at least somewhat of a goal so the hips are going to need to turn more and that is hard to do with the right heel on the ground so that's why I don't think that is a great postion or something that should be strived for.
You can keep your right shoulder back at impact and also have your heel up or at least rolled in. As a matter of fact it helps get the right shoulder back as long the heel doesn't move away from the target, which is of course the opposite of being rolled in. But again we aren't talking about impact we're talking through the ball. If weight has been shifted and the hips are turning then at the halfway through position the heel will likely rise and that is a good thing. Keeping it down is bad for your back too, especially if you aren't flexible, it's a similar situation as on the backswing. You can make a bigger backswing by allowing your left heel to come of the ground and it is easier on your back to do so. The point of keeping the heel down there is of course for resisitance/coil so you can spring back coming down. But on the follow through it's a release of resistance so nothing should be held down. That's mostly what I'm saying.
Tiger, Vijay, Els, Hogan, Nicklaus, etc are all hall of famers and on full swings they all have their right heel off the ground and rolled in plenty in the through the ball position.
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
The Ball is Gone Chris!
After Impact?
After?
After Impact?
After?
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
For Chris:
All of the following photos can be found on Brady Rigg's site of swing sequences. He has them password protected so i am not going to be providing links because i don't know how it will effect it. Here is his main site, if you need a password email him: http://redgoat.smugmug.com
Swing Sequence 1: Stuart Appleby, frame 7. This is the frame that is most similar to my student. It might be a 1/2 frame before where my student is and it is also at a different angle so you can see more of the shaft. Very similar right foot position. Maybe only slightly higher but not much.
Swing Sequence 2: Chad Campell, sequence 1 of 7, frame 7 or 8. Same similar description as above about Appleby except it is even "more down" than Appleby and more similar to my student.
Swing Sequence 3: Ernie Els, sequence 1 of 12, frame 7. This frame is again slightly before where my student is however Els right foot IS COMPLETELY FLAT. This was a 6 iron from 2006 Nissan Open.
Swing Sequence 4: Nick Faldo, sequence 1 of 11, frame 7 or 8. Simlar to descriptions above.
Swing Sequence 5: Trevor Immelman, sequence 1 of 2, frame 7.
I think 5 is enough, so you see there are examples of tour players who have similar foot action that i like to see.. This isn't THE way but i prefer it for most people UNLESS they don't have a problem getting their right shoulder going downplane and don't have a problem keeping their tilt.
Thank you, that should about do it.
All of the following photos can be found on Brady Rigg's site of swing sequences. He has them password protected so i am not going to be providing links because i don't know how it will effect it. Here is his main site, if you need a password email him: http://redgoat.smugmug.com
Swing Sequence 1: Stuart Appleby, frame 7. This is the frame that is most similar to my student. It might be a 1/2 frame before where my student is and it is also at a different angle so you can see more of the shaft. Very similar right foot position. Maybe only slightly higher but not much.
Swing Sequence 2: Chad Campell, sequence 1 of 7, frame 7 or 8. Same similar description as above about Appleby except it is even "more down" than Appleby and more similar to my student.
Swing Sequence 3: Ernie Els, sequence 1 of 12, frame 7. This frame is again slightly before where my student is however Els right foot IS COMPLETELY FLAT. This was a 6 iron from 2006 Nissan Open.
Swing Sequence 4: Nick Faldo, sequence 1 of 11, frame 7 or 8. Simlar to descriptions above.
Swing Sequence 5: Trevor Immelman, sequence 1 of 2, frame 7.
I think 5 is enough, so you see there are examples of tour players who have similar foot action that i like to see.. This isn't THE way but i prefer it for most people UNLESS they don't have a problem getting their right shoulder going downplane and don't have a problem keeping their tilt.
Thank you, that should about do it.
Hey Everyone,
I'm the student in the pic...I never would have thought that my pic would generate 50+ posts and a Video Answer from Brian! That pic and the way I was hitting the ball during Jim's lesson with me was REALLY good esp. for me, probably the best since I've been taking lessons from Jim. I remember looking at that pic (suitable for framing...lol) and seeing my right shoulder down, head still looking almost down as if the ball was still on the ground (not coming out of my shot), tilt, and being open. We were both pretty excited about the pic and the results. I don't remember us talking too much about my right foot, however, I'm pretty sure I can do it more than one way. Sometimes I think of it as a pitcher pushing off the pitcher's mound. It seems whatever happens with it, happens with it. I don't believe distance has been a goal (at least not yet). Although I haven't discussed this with Jim, I just assumed that if I started get everything right and things started falling into place that the distance would just follow. I'm looking to keep the ball in play.
As Jim mentioned I started seeing him about a year ago (we're in Chicago), so it's more like one golf season (a summer). Jim and I have worked on a lot things in my swing and we've made a lot of progress. I'm not very athletic, hand/eye coordination is average at best, about as flexible as 2x4, have a herniated disc in my back (slipped on the ice a number of years ago) of which the thought of that pain still lurks in the back of my mind, and I can't practice every day for hours (I'm able to practice about twice a week). I started golf when I was in my mid-20's or so and quit after a few months. I took it up again when I hit 38. I've had "puhlenty" of lessons and never really got much better. A couple of years ago I started seeing stuff on the Internet about TGM and I thought I'd give it a chance, it'd be my last before I quit for good. Actually, my last chance was going to be Natural Golf, then I'd quit or at least assume that golf was a natural talent and I didn't have any. I bought all of Brian's videos/shorts, etc. and I said this has to work. However, after seeing the yellow book and after seeing flying wedges and dowels on another website (no offense to those items or those that use/teach them)...I thought, jeez....I need a teacher. I wasn't interested in learning all that. I just want to make better contact and play better so that the game is tolerable and hopefully enjoyable. I couldn't find a TGM instructor in the area so I thought TGM was out. I thought maybe if I pay even more $$ for lessons (non-TGM) I'll get better, so I posted for golf teacher recommendations on GEA and Jim replied that he was sure he could help me. I didn't even realize that he was into TGM until about half-way into the first lesson. Not only did Jim have to teach me the right way, he also to "undo" not only my own misconceptions, but those that previous teachers had instilled. I could be wrong, but I'm sure I've been Jim's toughest challenge. Remember no one has ever seen any "before" pics and you won't because there aren't any (thankfully). I was all armsy and a flipper. I could hit the 3-iron through the 7-iron about the same distance which wasn't far. Besides the mechanics, Jim has also had to get me to "trust" that this is going to work which also hasn't been easy. Jim has a lot of patience and believed I could be better much more than I believed in myself.
Anyway, I have an ever evolving swing that keeps getting better. This is the first time that I've even admitted that I have a "swing". It's even became better (noticeably) since this picture was taken. I believe my pivot is getting much better. I forgot to look/feel what my right foot was doing, sorry. Maybe next weekend I can take some video of my swing and post it. By the way, I am curious as to the score that classifies someone as a "hacker"?
Thanks,
p
I'm the student in the pic...I never would have thought that my pic would generate 50+ posts and a Video Answer from Brian! That pic and the way I was hitting the ball during Jim's lesson with me was REALLY good esp. for me, probably the best since I've been taking lessons from Jim. I remember looking at that pic (suitable for framing...lol) and seeing my right shoulder down, head still looking almost down as if the ball was still on the ground (not coming out of my shot), tilt, and being open. We were both pretty excited about the pic and the results. I don't remember us talking too much about my right foot, however, I'm pretty sure I can do it more than one way. Sometimes I think of it as a pitcher pushing off the pitcher's mound. It seems whatever happens with it, happens with it. I don't believe distance has been a goal (at least not yet). Although I haven't discussed this with Jim, I just assumed that if I started get everything right and things started falling into place that the distance would just follow. I'm looking to keep the ball in play.
As Jim mentioned I started seeing him about a year ago (we're in Chicago), so it's more like one golf season (a summer). Jim and I have worked on a lot things in my swing and we've made a lot of progress. I'm not very athletic, hand/eye coordination is average at best, about as flexible as 2x4, have a herniated disc in my back (slipped on the ice a number of years ago) of which the thought of that pain still lurks in the back of my mind, and I can't practice every day for hours (I'm able to practice about twice a week). I started golf when I was in my mid-20's or so and quit after a few months. I took it up again when I hit 38. I've had "puhlenty" of lessons and never really got much better. A couple of years ago I started seeing stuff on the Internet about TGM and I thought I'd give it a chance, it'd be my last before I quit for good. Actually, my last chance was going to be Natural Golf, then I'd quit or at least assume that golf was a natural talent and I didn't have any. I bought all of Brian's videos/shorts, etc. and I said this has to work. However, after seeing the yellow book and after seeing flying wedges and dowels on another website (no offense to those items or those that use/teach them)...I thought, jeez....I need a teacher. I wasn't interested in learning all that. I just want to make better contact and play better so that the game is tolerable and hopefully enjoyable. I couldn't find a TGM instructor in the area so I thought TGM was out. I thought maybe if I pay even more $$ for lessons (non-TGM) I'll get better, so I posted for golf teacher recommendations on GEA and Jim replied that he was sure he could help me. I didn't even realize that he was into TGM until about half-way into the first lesson. Not only did Jim have to teach me the right way, he also to "undo" not only my own misconceptions, but those that previous teachers had instilled. I could be wrong, but I'm sure I've been Jim's toughest challenge. Remember no one has ever seen any "before" pics and you won't because there aren't any (thankfully). I was all armsy and a flipper. I could hit the 3-iron through the 7-iron about the same distance which wasn't far. Besides the mechanics, Jim has also had to get me to "trust" that this is going to work which also hasn't been easy. Jim has a lot of patience and believed I could be better much more than I believed in myself.
Anyway, I have an ever evolving swing that keeps getting better. This is the first time that I've even admitted that I have a "swing". It's even became better (noticeably) since this picture was taken. I believe my pivot is getting much better. I forgot to look/feel what my right foot was doing, sorry. Maybe next weekend I can take some video of my swing and post it. By the way, I am curious as to the score that classifies someone as a "hacker"?
Thanks,
p
davidmac00
New
great post,p!
p,
To answer you question as to whats score makes a hacker,i dont ever call people hackers.i teach golf for a living and know what people have to go through to learn this blasted game.EVERYONE has to go through the learning process!
I made the first challenge on this post in regard to teaching,nothing to do with YOUR golfing abilities.The title "a great through the ball position" sounded to me that jim felt this is a position we should ALL strive for,i questioned this.
I am sure jim will continue to help you become the best golfer you can be and i for one wish you all the best in you quest.
happy golfing,
david mccallum.
p,
To answer you question as to whats score makes a hacker,i dont ever call people hackers.i teach golf for a living and know what people have to go through to learn this blasted game.EVERYONE has to go through the learning process!
I made the first challenge on this post in regard to teaching,nothing to do with YOUR golfing abilities.The title "a great through the ball position" sounded to me that jim felt this is a position we should ALL strive for,i questioned this.
I am sure jim will continue to help you become the best golfer you can be and i for one wish you all the best in you quest.
happy golfing,
david mccallum.
Chris Sturgess
New member
After Impact?
After?
What are you talking about. So since the ball is already gone then nobody should discuss through the ball postions. Then you should tell Jim not to start a thread that is solely about that I guess. Through the ball positons reflect what was going on at impact and obviously that matters. Could you also settle down with the smugness? That is unnecessary.
I was under the assumption that people were aloud to disagree and discuss things on this website, even if they disagree with (gasp) Brian or Jim or somebody affiliated with Brian. Is this website for lectures or discussions? If it's for discussions then I think Brian and Jim should be less defensive and smug when a disagreement comes up. For a couple a guys who love to criticize other people and use ALL CAPS on a very REGULAR BASIS, you guys should grow some thicker skin and lighten up and be able to take it if you can give it.
Jim, here's what I'm saying. Striving for or liking a low heel position is not a good idea. The reason you like it is apparently for spine tilt. If a guy really can't get spine tilt with the heel up then he is quite inflexible, and by doing so that person will be losing distance by making more of an arm swing than a turn with the hips. So I don't think it's a great postion. I think the average person has more than enough flexibility to have spine tilt while the heel is up. And the right foot should be rolled inward, for average people, assuming they don't have exceptionally inflexible ankles.
Appleby's is a little higher, the frame is a little earlier, and the foot is more rolled in.
Chad Campbell I agree with, he's an exception. He has basically an arm swing that is based on lag. He also hits it pretty short despite his huge lag.
Ernie Els, he's hitting a smooth low energy shot to take spin off it and keep it low there. That is not his normal position on a full shot. Check out frame seven from series seven.
Faldo, I'm also going to tell you that he's hitting a low energy shot there, maybe going at it about 60%. When he hits a full distance shot or a driver his heel will be off the ground and rolled in. That's why it's really hard to find a guy hitting a driver with his heel down and flat, not because the club is longer, but because distance matters and they need some hip turn and are swinging near full effort. And they all obviously have plenty of spine tilt while doing this.
Immelman, alright, low at 7 high at 8. Check it out when he swings at full effort.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...=16&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
pm, we are just talking about a golf swing here nothing personal. I don't doubt that you've learned many things from Jim I just disagree with one thing he said here. I would define a hacker as someone who hits the ball with all arms and no pivot, usually coming over the top to do so.
echoes77
New
Sergio (down) and Toms (up)
Here are two swing sequences, one of Sergio Garcia and the second is David Toms. In my humble and amateur opinion, two great swings for different reasons. Sergio's is no 3/4 low energy swing. He hits it a mile, has freaky club lag and a great follow through. David Toms' swing, and Riggs' analysis, are pure joy. Talk about parallel and flat left wrist. Whatever works best for you.
http://www.golfdigest.com/flash/swing_seqs/index.ssf?/flash/swing_seqs/garcia/garcia.html
http://www.golftipscc.com/profiles/profiles04_03/profilesmain.html
Here are two swing sequences, one of Sergio Garcia and the second is David Toms. In my humble and amateur opinion, two great swings for different reasons. Sergio's is no 3/4 low energy swing. He hits it a mile, has freaky club lag and a great follow through. David Toms' swing, and Riggs' analysis, are pure joy. Talk about parallel and flat left wrist. Whatever works best for you.
http://www.golfdigest.com/flash/swing_seqs/index.ssf?/flash/swing_seqs/garcia/garcia.html
http://www.golftipscc.com/profiles/profiles04_03/profilesmain.html
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Mr. Sturgess
At the Brian Manzella Golf Forum, and the Manzella Golf Academy, we like debate.
What you may or may not know about me, is that I WILL that the "other side" od an arguement just to show all the "angles."
95% of the time, I am TEACHING golfers to "spin up" on their right toe, after leading with the heel.
In 98% of lessons, I am trying to get the golfer to finish on the left heel, which will almost always pull up the right foot.
But at the Brian Manzella Golf Forum, and the Manzella Golf Academy, we BLOW UP any AXIOM that is, well, just not something that is a 99% correct statement.
Hope you understand, and realize we don't teach everyone to have the right foot stuck on the ground.
But also remember—DOING JUST THAT—helps some golfers.
At the Brian Manzella Golf Forum, and the Manzella Golf Academy, we like debate.
What you may or may not know about me, is that I WILL that the "other side" od an arguement just to show all the "angles."
95% of the time, I am TEACHING golfers to "spin up" on their right toe, after leading with the heel.
In 98% of lessons, I am trying to get the golfer to finish on the left heel, which will almost always pull up the right foot.
But at the Brian Manzella Golf Forum, and the Manzella Golf Academy, we BLOW UP any AXIOM that is, well, just not something that is a 99% correct statement.
Hope you understand, and realize we don't teach everyone to have the right foot stuck on the ground.
But also remember—DOING JUST THAT—helps some golfers.
...
Echos,
I have a swing sequence of Sergio (driver) and the heel is well up at impact....
Echos,
I have a swing sequence of Sergio (driver) and the heel is well up at impact....
birdie_man
New
Brian....
Watched the video. (thanks)
Keeping the foot down have to do with kinetic chain too? Delaying the pivot "thrusting"....?
...
BTW y'all.....
I heard from someone who played with Moe (I assume when he was a little younger but I'm not really sure) that he had Moe hit a few drives for him for distance.....all three were over 300 yards apparently. I do know that Moe was pretty up there in age when he started getting known on a global level. Just a little story though.
Watched the video. (thanks)
Keeping the foot down have to do with kinetic chain too? Delaying the pivot "thrusting"....?
...
BTW y'all.....
I heard from someone who played with Moe (I assume when he was a little younger but I'm not really sure) that he had Moe hit a few drives for him for distance.....all three were over 300 yards apparently. I do know that Moe was pretty up there in age when he started getting known on a global level. Just a little story though.
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