A tree, gently toppling over

[Brian Manzella]

And the answer is...

if a man throws a punch, then you step out of the way and walk away, is it possible the fight may end?

No.

I tried that back in the day—and quite a few times since. What happens is THEY RUN OVER ME when I'm not looking (cause I'm trying to be a "step out of the way" kind-a-guy.

Nobody wants to give me my due. They'll give it to ALL KINDS of people who teach golf, but not me.

I've known why for a long time, and there is NOTHING I can do about it...

...except...

Keep swinging.

One day, I'll be on top.

Then everybody (even my detractors) will say:

"Oh, that Brian, we knew he was that good."


_____________________________________________


Now Mandrin.

What in the HECK are you talking about dude?

You are comparing what I think is IDEAL (and say so in an article) and what I did on a swing in a clip?

GMAFB.

 

[mandrin]

Mandrin . . . good to see you out here . . . I missed you man.

Who would be a "posterboy" for this toppling over move you describe?

Does Eldrick make this move? His head seems to move forward and down at transition?

rundmc,

Nice to see you missed me. I have again some time to dork around a bit.

I have seen this toppling over various times over the years but don’t remember names of pros who where doing it. I don’t keep a collection of swing sequences. Anything requiring memory is not my strong suite.

In general when the angles in the back swing are maintained one gets more like learned with the baseball drill. There is feeling of falling back on the lead foot as the first move, but head stays back and there is an axis tilt to the right.

If like taught by Dr Mann (CompuSport) you have some whole body shift onto the trail side in the backswing the body gets stacked more vertical over the trail leg and one might see more of a toppling over as transition move.

There are all the shades in between - each and every golfer is slightly different. You can have golfers who have a fairly large lateral head movement toward the target and yet they appear to simply fall onto the lead foot and not topple over.

Address of Eldrick's swing sequence?

 

[rundmc]

rundmc,

Nice to see you missed me. I have again some time to dork around a bit.

I have seen this toppling over various times over the years but don’t remember names of pros who where doing it. I don’t keep a collection of swing sequences. Anything requiring memory is not my strong suite.

In general when the angles in the back swing are maintained one gets more like learned with the baseball drill. There is feeling of falling back on the lead foot as the first move, but head stays back and there is an axis tilt to the right.

If like taught by Dr Mann (CompuSport) you have some whole body shift onto the trail side in the backswing the body gets stacked more vertical over the trail leg and one might see more of a toppling over as transition move.

There are all the shades in between - each and every golfer is slightly different. You can have golfers who have a fairly large lateral head movement toward the target and yet they appear to simply fall onto the lead foot and not topple over.

Address of Eldrick's swing sequence?

Sounds like that gravity golf thing . . . counter fall?

 

[mrodock]

Is a rocking chair a better image? The tree toppling over gives me the idea that only the upper body goes left and the lower body is dead still.

Matt

 

[Perfect Impact]

The center of gravity is what falls left. The top drops down on the right side because when the hips DO move left and the center (C-7) remains steady, the torso MUST pendulum-swing and drive the right shoulder downplane.

 

[mandrin]

counter fall

Sounds like that gravity golf thing . . . counter fall?

Since David Lee introduced formally the Gravity Swing in GOLF, May, 79, almost 30 years ago, and endorsed by Jack NickLaus, the ‘gravity counter fall’ has become part of the mainstream of golf.

 

[rwh]

"Flow of Weight"

I think Bobby Jones described what you are talking about in his instructional movie series where he says that the correct downswing sequence is disrupted if the "hips begin to turn before the flow of weight has started back to the left foot."

 

[mandrin]

Is a rocking chair a better image? The tree toppling over gives me the idea that only the upper body goes left and the lower body is dead still.Matt

Matt, I tried with the figure to illustrate the difference between toppling over and counterfall. It really should be animated.

 

[magic43]

In Joe Dante's book, "Four Magic Moves to Winning Golf", in the chapter on "Starting Down", there is some illustrations that seem to suggest just such a leftward lean or toppling as refered to in the above posts. There are four illustrations showing a golfer, with a "T" on his back to represent the spine, from behind with the first being as he is nearing or at the top of the backswing. In shows that the "T" is leaning slightly to the left. The next illustration shows the gentle bump of the hips toward the left and the resulting straightening of the "T" back toward the right. The next two illustrations shows as the hips continue their slide to the left, the "T" progressively tilts to the right.
As Brian also points out that from that gentle bump of the hips to the left at the start of the downswing, the resulting effect of the hips sliding to the left, the shoulders continue to open and the right shoulder goes down the plane line thru impact.

Regards,
Magic

 

[mrodock]

I'm sorry Mandrin, I don't understand the counterfall illustration, but you don't have to waste your time helping me to understand the figure. No worries.

Matt

 

[Perfect Impact]

Counterfall is David Lee's word for the action/reaction of the body falling leftward and backwards towards the left heel in anticipation of the force of the arms and club spinning in their arcs. THEIR force pulls the golfer towards the target line: for the balance of the system to be retained, the BACK of the golfer falls AWAY from the target line: in the tug-0-war between the two equal and opposite forces, the ribbon in the center remains motionless.

So the swing center, while actually moving somewhat, DOES remain as the core of the actions around it which must be equal and opposite.

THE DIRECTION of the counterfall is about 70 degrees away from straight back from the target line - forward toward the target.

SInce the center of mass of the body is in the lower mid-section, THAT is why the Dante/Austin compound pivot shows movement to the left THERE instead of at the shoulders falling left.

 

[rwh]

Counterfall is David Lee's word for the action/reaction of the body falling leftward and backwards towards the left heel in anticipation of the force of the arms and club spinning in their arcs. THEIR force pulls the golfer towards the target line: for the balance of the system to be retained, the BACK of the golfer falls AWAY from the target line: in the tug-0-war between the two equal and opposite forces, the ribbon in the center remains motionless.

So the swing center, while actually moving somewhat, DOES remain as the core of the actions around it which must be equal and opposite.

THE DIRECTION of the counterfall is about 70 degrees away from straight back from the target line - forward toward the target.

SInce the center of mass of the body is in the lower mid-section, THAT is why the Dante/Austin compound pivot shows movement to the left THERE instead of at the shoulders falling left.

I don't believe this is what Mandrin is describing. First, Mandrin is describing a body movement towards the target, not a rearwards movement, away from the target line. Secondly, David Lee states that the counterfall merely creates equalibrium and is hardly noticeable. In fact, he states that the properly executed counterfall results in "an appearance of stillness" created by this equilibrium.

 

[mandrin]

I'm sorry Mandrin, I don't understand the counterfall illustration, but you don't have to waste your time helping me to understand the figure. No worries.Matt

mrodock, it is always a pleasure to help people who are truly interested.

The blue line represents the trail leg and the red line the body. Some imagination is required to fill in the missing pieces.

The left figure shows a golfer stacked almost vertically over his trail leg and gently toppling over towards the target.

The right figure shows a golfer having maintained the angle in his trail leg in the back swing and having his weight fall back onto the lead side (hip).

Both scenarios involve gravity in the transition. It is real fun to play around with gravity. Try it. Do get your self into the positions shown in the figures and let gravity take over.

 

[mrodock]

mrodock, it is always a pleasure to help people who are truly interested.

The blue line represents the trail leg and the red line the body. Some imagination is required to fill in the missing pieces.

The left figure shows a golfer stacked almost vertically over his trail leg and gently toppling over towards the target.

The right figure shows a golfer having maintained the angle in his trail leg in the back swing and having his weight fall back onto the lead side (hip).

Both scenarios involve gravity in the transition. It is real fun to play around with gravity. Try it. Do get your self into the positions shown in the figures and let gravity take over.

cool thanks mandrin, pretty sure I got it now

 

[birdie_man]

BIRDIE: Why do I call myself "The Iallian Stallion"?

Because I have taught NON-STOP for 25 years and HAVE ALWAYS had to FIGHT EVERY STEP OF THE WAY to get as good as I am, and accomplish what I have, and most importantly to LEARN ALL THAT I HAVE about TGM, and what just about everyone else teaches, and figure out what works—what don't—and why.

Then someone comes along and calls himself a fictional ALL KNOWING movie character.

So I—in my own little way—stuck a needle in him by calling myself "The Italian Staiion."

At least my (self) title fits.

Eheheheh.

That makes sense.

I didn't think of it in a negative way.....you call yourself that all the time.....it just really made me laugh that time for some reason (was laughing by myself at my computer).....

....big capital letters.....capitalized "the" like a title....."The ITALIAN STALLION."

Keep doin it it's funny.

 

[birdie_man]

if a man throws a punch at you and you throw one back then he throws againg and you again etc..........

if a man throws a punch, then you step out of the way and walk away, is it possible the fight may end?

But does the man in question want the fight to end? Or does he want to change something?

 

[shootin4par]

But does the man in question want the fight to end? Or does he want to change something?

does the man have a noble goal, yes. but there has to come a time when you realize the negative things are not getting the goal achieved and you cannot beat it into anyone. focusing on the positive will get more TRUE believers and people who want to assist others in reaching a goal. Focusing on negatives will get a crowd all riled up but THAT crowd will have little substance

 

[Brian Manzella]

Hey shootin!

Is that "MANZELLA-Pivot" still workin' for ya?

 

[Bigwill]

does the man have a noble goal, yes. but there has to come a time when you realize the negative things are not getting the goal achieved and you cannot beat it into anyone. focusing on the positive will get more TRUE believers and people who want to assist others in reaching a goal. Focusing on negatives will get a crowd all riled up but THAT crowd will have little substance

Well said.

 

[c21heel]

Toppling Over? Sounds like the first move for a smothered hook.