A tree, gently toppling over

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shootin4par

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Brian Manzella said:
Is that "MANZELLA-Pivot" still workin' for ya?
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first round out with it yesterday and I shot a 75. But brian it is the pivot you prefer, not the pivot you created. I did learn it here and understand it here, so thanks for passing along the information. I dont know that I would have gotten it without your aticle :)
 
D

DOCW3

New
mandrin said:
The CompuSport CD, “MODEL GOLF – Swing Like A Pro”, by Dr Ralph Mann, a biomechanics expert, has detailed instruction about the transition move. The lateral hip slid should start well before the shoulders have fully turned in the backswing.

There is just one small problem. The associated animated computer model - “The Pro” - based on over 100 pro swings of both PGA and LPGA players, does not show this at all.

Instead if you will see first a motion of the upper body resembling that of a tree gently toppling towards the target before the lower body gets into the act.

I have seen this before in golf swings and viewing Brian’s lagpressuredrill.mov video I also noticed exactly this same motion. The very first move appears an upper body move gently topping over to the target.

It is an interesting example of discrepancy between what is being taught and what is actually taking place. ;)
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http://homepage.mac.com/brianmanzella/.Movies/crocca-fi.mov

Is what you describe visible in the Rocca clip?

DRW
 
mandrin

mandrin

New
DOCW3 said:
Too bad, its a great clip to study.

What about Darren Clarke-same motion IMO?
http://www.darrenclarke.com/ism/sites/clarke/

Select My Swing from the options in the upper left and drag the mouse pointer through the numbers.

Thanks

DRW
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DOCW3, not many images available to analyze. Don’t see much toppling in his swing.

However, you can feel it for yourself quite readily by exaggerating a bit. Get into the classic K address position. You now either shift the whole body laterally away from the target or turn around a steady trail hip in the backswing. In the first case you will more readily topple over in the second case there is more readily a counter fall onto the lead foot.

Toppling over is a sweet feeling. Very different from a strenuous wind up. Even if the body moves slowly in the transition it should be rememberd that a large mass at slow speed has similar kinetic energy as a small mass at high speeds. Eventually in an efficient golfswing the kinetic energy of the body ends up in the clubhead.

I like to remind here that I am not selling or defending any particular idea. I just like to experiment and this is just one interesting facet of the complex mosaic making up to the golf swing.
 
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rundmc

Banned
mandrin said:
Since David Lee introduced formally the Gravity Swing in GOLF, May, 79, almost 30 years ago, and endorsed by Jack NickLaus, the ‘gravity counter fall’ has become part of the mainstream of golf.
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Mandrin . . . this may not exactly be on topic or something that you have studied/researched/or care about. . .

But what role does the ground play in the golf swing? Do you think that "weight transfer" during the "transition" is a horizontal motion or a vertical motion or both? Or none of the above?

Thanks!

R
 
mandrin

mandrin

New
rundmc said:
Mandrin . . . this may not exactly be on topic or something that you have studied/researched/or care about. . .

But what role does the ground play in the golf swing? Do you think that "weight transfer" during the "transition" is a horizontal motion or a vertical motion or both? Or none of the above?

Thanks!

R
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rundmc,

A very intriguing question indeed. I feel that it is an area not quite well understood.

Having done mathematical modeling I am quite aware how complicated things are. It is one thing to analyze a double or triple pendulum golf swing but to involve all of the body, from the ground up is quite beyond me. The problem is that the body is both a complex ensemble of masses and an ensemble of distributed torques which can be used in so many different ways.

Notwithstanding Prof Jorgensen’s and Dr Cochran’s findings, which are erroneous, one should be able to generate quite descent clubhead speeds without resorting to active support of the bulky muscles. Therefore the option to use the lower body either as an active source for power or simply as a stable platform are still very much viable.

There is however a simple experiment you can do for yourself which can perhaps show a bit of light on your question of weight transfer.

Swing to the top and consciously try ONLY execute a very short vigorous motion downwards, almost over before you even started it. The whole body is hence involved in an impulsive vertical motion, rather violent but of very short duration. If done correctly the clubhead is really trying to escape from your hands through impact.

From this experiment you will learn that:

- The bigger body parts should decelerate in an appropriate time frame relative to the golf swing to be able to transfer their energy in time before impact.

- The muscles connecting the various body parts, (e.g. hips to shoulders) definitely should not be slack; otherwise the kinetic energy transfer is being sabotaged.

- A weight shift, horizontal, vertical or a mix, is only contributing much to clubhead velocity if it ultimately results in a timely TORQUE exerted through the shoulders onto the arms/golfclub.

- You will notice if you do the exepriment suggested above that a golfer can’t just make a pure impulsive vertical motion. There is immediately a torque developed through the legs onto the lower body.
 
R

rundmc

Banned
mandrin said:
rundmc,

A very intriguing question indeed. I feel that it is an area not quite well understood.

Having done mathematical modeling I am quite aware how complicated things are. It is one thing to analyze a double or triple pendulum golf swing but to involve all of the body, from the ground up is quite beyond me. The problem is that the body is both a complex ensemble of masses and an ensemble of distributed torques which can be used in so many different ways.

Notwithstanding Prof Jorgensen’s and Dr Cochran’s findings, which are erroneous, one should be able to generate quite descent clubhead speeds without resorting to active support of the bulky muscles. Therefore the option to use the lower body either as an active source for power or simply as a stable platform are still very much viable.

There is however a simple experiment you can do for yourself which can perhaps show a bit of light on your question of weight transfer.

Swing to the top and consciously try ONLY execute a very short vigorous motion downwards, almost over before you even started it. The whole body is hence involved in an impulsive vertical motion, rather violent but of very short duration. If done correctly the clubhead is really trying to escape from your hands through impact.

From this experiment you will learn that:

- The bigger body parts should decelerate in an appropriate time frame relative to the golf swing to be able to transfer their energy in time before impact.

- The muscles connecting the various body parts, (e.g. hips to shoulders) definitely should not be slack; otherwise the kinetic energy transfer is being sabotaged.

- A weight shift, horizontal, vertical or a mix, is only contributing much to clubhead velocity if it ultimately results in a timely TORQUE exerted through the shoulders onto the arms/golfclub.

- You will notice if you do the exepriment suggested above that a golfer can’t just make a pure impulsive vertical motion. There is immediately a torque developed through the legs onto the lower body.
Click to expand...

Tried it. I see where you are coming from. I tried it feeling a FORWARD motion and a VERTICAL motion. The sensations are different and the LOOK is also very different. I actually think more torque or whatever is developed by the vertical move. Don't know if there is anything to that or not.

Mr. K said that the body only supplied the INITIAL acceleration and from there the right tricep takes over in hitting or CP/CF or whatever takes over in swinging. I don't want to debate the CP or CF or Triceps . . . but what would you say about the body supplying JUST the INITIAL ACCELERATION?

Here's another little thing I have been trying. Go to the top of the backswing . . . stop . . . and from that position HOP. I filmed it and the lower body action looks "professional." That is why I question whether the term SHIFT has screwed people up. I think that there certainly IS a shift but I also I have to think there is some PRESSURE (may not be the scientifically correct term but I ain't no scientist) going VERTICALLY into the ground. I'm not breaking any ground here for sure. Brian and may others have certainly said that is the case . . . but I'm not sure that there is science to back it up . . . but could certainly be wrong there too. I'm just lucky to have matching socks when I leave the crib.

So may be it's not a "power" thing but a support thing?

Check the 5th picture in the top sequence . . . seems to be more FORWARD shift. . .

swingpanel.jpg


This one looks more VERTICAL and DOWN . . . at about the same "position" or "time".

0641-9624.jpg
 
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P

Perfect Impact

New
Mike Austin said that when he REALLY wanted to bust one, he would "pivot" faster. HIS pivot was the compound pivot, the Dante T shape of shoulders and spine rotating about the intersection: so clearly the right side of the T (the right shoulder as you look at it on the screen, i.e., the back of the golfer's right shoulder) GOES DOWN when the BOTTOM of the T (the base of the spine) goes to the left. That obviously can USE gravity for the downward motion of the shoulder, the arms, and the hands and club. The legs also torque that vertical rotational motion (the knees move the bottom of the spine), AND mass in the body rebalances against the torque of any additional muscular downpull given to the arms.

After using up the amplitude [in either direction] of the base of the spine when it aligns on top of the respective femur, THEN the OTHER kind of rotation occurs: in the backswing, to complete the hip and shoulder turn for the loadup; in the downswing, for slamming the door ("hitting the ball with your pivot") and finishing.

Not breaking ground: and PLENTY of kinesiological basis - anatomical and engineering efficiency of the alignment of forces. No leakage here.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
That Pivot.

shootin4par said:
then why do you call it manzella style??
Click to expand...

When you have some people calling a Pivot that is NOTHING like I teach to most people a "standard 'golfing machine' pivot,"

I need to call what I teach something!

Now, It is somehwat like a DOYLE-pivot, but not exactly.

So since I am sort of invented what it is exactly and how I teach it exactly—it will be called the MANZELLA PIVOT in this house.

"We must protect this house."

CLICK—CLACK....
 
S

shootin4par

New
Brian Manzella said:
When you have some people calling a Pivot that is NOTHING like I teach to most people a "standard 'golfing machine' pivot,"

I need to call what I teach something!

Now, It is somehwat like a DOYLE-pivot, but not exactly.

So since I am sort of invented what it is exactly and how I teach it exactly—it will be called the MANZELLA PIVOT in this house.

"We must protect this house."

CLICK—CLACK....
Click to expand...
if you call it the perfect pivot, because the name is a description of what you believe it is, then that is cool. BTW, I agree it is a great pivot, much better then the other style I used. My issue is naming it after you because that creates a sense of ownership.
 
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birdie_man

birdie_man

New
Brian Manzella said:
When you have some people calling a Pivot that is NOTHING like I teach to most people a "standard 'golfing machine' pivot,"

I need to call what I teach something!

Now, It is somehwat like a DOYLE-pivot, but not exactly.

So since I am sort of invented what it is exactly and how I teach it exactly—it will be called the MANZELLA PIVOT in this house.

"We must protect this house."

CLICK—CLACK....
Click to expand...

How is it different fr. a Doyle-style pivot?

Standarn Knee Action instead of R. Anchor?

(for all you non GM folks...Standard is a Hogan/Snead style right knee that straightens some in the BS.....wheread R. Anchor is a r. knee that stays bent)
 
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tourdeep

tourdeep

New
Xerox this and get me a coke while you're at it

Brian Manzella said:
When you have some people calling a Pivot that is NOTHING like I teach to most people a "standard 'golfing machine' pivot,"

I need to call what I teach something!

it will be called the MANZELLA PIVOT in this house.

"We must protect this house."

CLICK—CLACK....
Click to expand...




Branding can be a beautiful thing. Those in the know will know...!


it's all about the messenger...
 
tourdeep

tourdeep

New
birdie_man said:
How is it different fr. a Doyle-style pivot?

Standarn Knee Action instead of R. Anchor?

(for all you non GM folks...Standard is a Hogan/Snead style right knee that straightens some in the BS.....wheread R. Anchor is a r. knee that stays bent)
Click to expand...

Hogan a standard? Maybe depends on which swing of his we're talking about. But for the most part, gotta go with David A. on this one...!

I think the right anchor straightens some, a little some...
 
D

DOCW3

New
mandrin said:
DOCW3, not many images available to analyze. Don’t see much toppling in his swing.

However, you can feel it for yourself quite readily by exaggerating a bit. Get into the classic K address position. You now either shift the whole body laterally away from the target or turn around a steady trail hip in the backswing. In the first case you will more readily topple over in the second case there is more readily a counter fall onto the lead foot.

Toppling over is a sweet feeling. Very different from a strenuous wind up. Even if the body moves slowly in the transition it should be rememberd that a large mass at slow speed has similar kinetic energy as a small mass at high speeds. Eventually in an efficient golfswing the kinetic energy of the body ends up in the clubhead.

I like to remind here that I am not selling or defending any particular idea. I just like to experiment and this is just one interesting facet of the complex mosaic making up to the golf swing.
Click to expand...

Mandrin~

Thanks

Hopefully there will be some clarification frames or other video.

The frame frequency for the lag pressure video is too low for me to understand/see what you have described/illustrated. I am not familiar with "Toppling Over" but would have understood if it was evident in the Rocca/Clarke clips. After reviewing all the thread posts, your later comments and your sketch I don't think it is.

DRW
 
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