am i flipping? (now with Manzella Answers)

Status
Not open for further replies.
<object height="344" width="425">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_FcvURjDDaA&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="344" width="425"></object>

this was struck very well, but it almost seems im throwing the club a little
 
well mister peckmiester the VI'th,

In my very very uneducated eye, it definitely looks as though you are not holding on to the angle, and releasing very early ala ogilvy, however, TO ME, it doesnt look to be a "flip" or what I understand to be a "flip" i.e. club head past hands at impact. just very tossy, early release.

thats my 2 cents... or euros for you peck...
 
It looks all right to me. I'm not sure exactly what consitutes flipping, but it looks like you have forward lean at impact and, like you said, you hit it well.
 
Yes, you have a flip. At impact, I should be able to draw a straight line down the left arm and the clubshaft should be right on that line. There's a bit of an 'angle' with you at impact. Basically at impact I draw the straight line down the left arm and the clubshaft is not in line with it. It's not too bad and I used to do the same thing.

Once I got rid of the flip I obviously saw an increase in power, but where I saw the big increases was in accuracy and consistency. I think Brian's NSA 2.0 would be really good for you.




3JACK
 
Left wrist looks like it's bending a pinch, can't really tell if it's before or after the ball though. It's damn close. Swing looks good, maybe you can slow it down some more at home and check it out.

Like curtis asked, distance and direction ok?
 
well mister peckmiester the VI'th,

In my very very uneducated eye, it definitely looks as though you are not holding on to the angle, and releasing very early ala ogilvy, however, TO ME, it doesnt look to be a "flip" or what I understand to be a "flip" i.e. club head past hands at impact. just very tossy, early release.

thats my 2 cents... or euros for you peck...

A flip (my definition) is a bent left wrist at impact. 'Throwaway' means that the angle is being 'released' before impact. One can have throwaway and still not flip at impact. They'll lose some power in doing so, but they can still play very good, consistent golf. The LPGA is filled with players who have throwaway and no flip. However, if you do flip you must have throwaway. But again, just because you have throwaway doesn't mean you flip.



3JACK
 
Yes, you have a flip. At impact, I should be able to draw a straight line down the left arm and the clubshaft should be right on that line. There's a bit of an 'angle' with you at impact. Basically at impact I draw the straight line down the left arm and the clubshaft is not in line with it. It's not too bad and I used to do the same thing.

Once I got rid of the flip I obviously saw an increase in power, but where I saw the big increases was in accuracy and consistency. I think Brian's NSA 2.0 would be really good for you.




3JACK


I see what you're saying. It's really hard to catch though from the video; the swing looks pretty damn good.

You think dragging the handle might help 3JACK?
 
Does it matter?

Well, ok, if you flipped it like the guy who plays in my foursome on saturdays it would matter because the guy hits the driver great and can't time the flip inside 120 yards to save his life.

Pecky, your swing looks very nice - how do you score these days?

btw, here' s what one former flipper had to say on the subject of flipping in 2008:

"Good questions.

Here it is:

You probably need to learn to hit the ball with a flat or arched left wrist at impact—and maintain that flat or arched wrist—at some point in your development.

After that....you really don't want to do it to much unless it works for you.

I learn from my mistakes. I am a better teacher now than I was last week, and better than last year, and much better than three years ago.

You CAN NOT overlean the shaft and control the clubface to path relationship unless you aim WAY LEFT.

A flip is simply another way to say, layback, in many ways.

Ben Curtis comes very close to a flip and probably DOES flip it on his poorer shots.

But, I don't know how many times I have to say that "compression" is a VERY misunderstood thing.

The ball really only knows SPEED, true PATH. true CLUBFACE, and contact point.

All that other stuff is VERY overrated."
 
I see what you're saying. It's really hard to catch though from the video; the swing looks pretty damn good.

You think dragging the handle might help 3JACK?

Maybe.

I know there's not a ton of love for TGM here (although I don't think it's villified here either), but once I understood the idea behind learning feel from mechanics and then understood how TGM is really a feel oriented book (surprising to some with all the mechanical jargon in there), that's when I stopped flipping and my ballstriking and scores dropped big time. I think learning feel from mechanics really cannot be disputed to me. Once you 'own it', you'll find this game so much easier.

In other words, I can suggest some feels and they may work, but it usually doesn't really do you any good until you get some drills for flipping and then really ask yourself that when you use the proper mechanics, how does it feel to you?

CoFF is filled with concepts and drills to help get rid of the flip that pretty much fit exactly with your swing pattern. And NSA 2.0 jives with that as well.

You can play good golf with a flip. I played to a +2 over ten years ago with a flip. Of course, I look back now and I see myself as having a sensational short game and being extremely strong out of the bunker and on flops, which needs to happen if you play at that level with a flip because when you miss greens, you tend to miss them bad. And consistency is almost impossible to have as well.

Now without the flip I'm playing to a +0.3 and my putting is probably the worst it has ever been and really hasn't been right since I got back from the 8 year layoff from the game. I guess I can see some of the thoughts of eliminating the flip as being overrated. I only gained about 20 yards with my driver and a club with my irons, but I honestly thought I would gain something like 40 yards with my driver and at least 2 clubs with my irons.

But the biggest improvement is in consistency. I can't tell you how refreshing it is to not shoot those outrageously bad, out-of-nowhere scores. Furthermore, even on my bad days I have the utmost confidence that the next day I'll get it back and play well.

For instance, today I go out and play and bogey the first hole and then hit a slice on #2 and make a bogey there and then catch one a little thin on the par-3 third hole. I'm now +2 after the first three holes. But I wasn't that worried about it and wound up shooting even on the day and hitting 14 of the last 15 holes and hitting 12 out of 13 fairways. In the 'flipping days', I could've wound up with a big round or a horrendous front side and then a good back side and just be frustrated and confused by the inconsistency.

For that, I say getting rid of the flip is almost invaluable. At least to my psyche.





3JACK
 

Jared Willerson

Super Moderator
Maybe.

I know there's not a ton of love for TGM here (although I don't think it's villified here either),
3JACK

That is just silly. Homer gets a lot of credit for working with what he had at the time. This site just wants to advance..get things in line with new technologies and discoveries.

Brian is a GSED, and has said he refers to that as golf instructions equivalent of Harvard, but has learned a lot more in the "real world"

I enjoy reading your posts, as they are normally well-written, but that statement seems to contain a veiled slam at our host for not being a yellow book thumping literalist, which I am glad he is not.
 
I wouldn't say that is flipping. You said it was well struck and you did take a divot after the ball, I would just say that is minimal shaft lean at impact. Even if your left wrist is a hair bent at impact, the ball doesn't know.

Nice swing.
 
I wouldn't say that is flipping. You said it was well struck and you did take a divot after the ball, I would just say that is minimal shaft lean at impact. Even if your left wrist is a hair bent at impact, the ball doesn't know.

Nice swing.

It is a flip.

You can flip and strike it well and take a divot after the ball. I should know, did it for roughly 20 years. From a well struck standpoint and hitting it accurately, the ball doesn't know if the left wrist is slightly bent at impact, but repeating it over and over again is a different story. I could always hit as good of great shots with just about the best of them, but doing it time after time and hitting better poor shots is the key.

Plus, I do think in this OP's case, getting rid of the flip would increase his power quite noticeably because he loses quite a bit of lag pressure there.





3JACK
 
looking at my swing as objectively as i can, it looks pretty much like a SD model. pivot drag off the ball, counterfall, toss release etc

and it looks like im snapping the chain pretty good :)

er as for distance and direction, irons are goin pretty much wer im looking. mid to short irons are dialed in with an occasional pull. long irons are struck very nicely but cut/slicing. cant hit fairway woods and driver, with a slightly altered motion, is straight with the occasional hook/block

getting prettttty darn close to shooting in the 70's. shot 81 in medal before last with a 4-putt haha and 81 in last medal with a double at the easiest hole on the course and 2 stupid 3-putts
 
Yes, you have a flip. At impact, I should be able to draw a straight line down the left arm and the clubshaft should be right on that line. There's a bit of an 'angle' with you at impact. Basically at impact I draw the straight line down the left arm and the clubshaft is not in line with it. It's not too bad and I used to do the same thing.

Once I got rid of the flip I obviously saw an increase in power, but where I saw the big increases was in accuracy and consistency. I think Brian's NSA 2.0 would be really good for you.




3JACK

by TGM definition, you are wrong. throwaway is the club passing the left arm before the ball is struck. you can have a circle delivery path with a full sweep release, and that is not a flip
 
That is just silly. Homer gets a lot of credit for working with what he had at the time. This site just wants to advance..get things in line with new technologies and discoveries.

Brian is a GSED, and has said he refers to that as golf instructions equivalent of Harvard, but has learned a lot more in the "real world"

I enjoy reading your posts, as they are normally well-written, but that statement seems to contain a veiled slam at our host for not being a yellow book thumping literalist, which I am glad he is not.

It's actually not a slam at Brian. In my experience there are posters here that once anybody brings up something about TGM they tend to dismiss it and I personally think it's because they misinterpret Brian's philosophies.

Essentially, I was making a reference to a concept of TGM that once I understood it, my game improved tremendously and I had a feeling that a faction of posters would immediately dismiss that concept as outdated because it's part of TGM.

That's why I also specifically said 'I don't think it's villified here, either.'




3JACK
 
well mister peckmiester the VI'th,

In my very very uneducated eye, it definitely looks as though you are not holding on to the angle, and releasing very early ala ogilvy, however, TO ME, it doesnt look to be a "flip" or what I understand to be a "flip" i.e. club head past hands at impact. just very tossy, early release.

thats my 2 cents... or euros for you peck...

pence actually ;)
 
by TGM definition, you are wrong. throwaway is the club passing the left arm before the ball is struck. you can have a circle delivery path with a full sweep release, and that is not a flip

Flip

flip+1.jpg



Not a Flip

Kevin1.jpg



Flip

flip+2.jpg



Not a Flip

Kevin+2.jpg





3JACK
 
Hmmm... why the albatross about the flip and not? If they flip and hit it better rather than not, so is that a problem?

One of the most astute things I ever read from Brian was how golfer's can hit it better with a flip than when they try not to flip. But the trick is to get the golfer hitting it poorly when they do flip to help promote in their brain to not flip.

I had the same problem for quite a long time. But the key phrase is *try not to flip.*

If Pecky gets the flip out of his swing eventually, he will hit the ball better than he ever has before and his bad days will be when he shoots an 81.




3JACK
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top