am i flipping? (now with Manzella Answers)

[Jim Kobylinski]

er as for distance and direction, irons are goin pretty much wer im looking. mid to short irons are dialed in with an occasional pull. long irons are struck very nicely but cut/slicing. cant hit fairway woods and driver, with a slightly altered motion, is straight with the occasional hook/block

All symptoms of timing a flip unfortunately, it has recently snuck back into even my own game and i'm working on getting rid of it. However when i am practicing and know i'm not flipping my long irons / woods / driver because just as accurate/long/easy to hit as my short irons.

 

[fronesis]

I'm late to this discussion, but I just want to throw my (very light) weight behind what Richie3Jack has been saying here.

First off, there's no reason to make "not flipping" into the holy grail of the golf swing. We should all know there is no such thing as a single answer to the swing. And it's undoubtedly true that one can play really, really good golf with a timed flip. About 5 years ago I was playing off of 1.6 with a VERY flippy swing.

But what 3jack says is right: the problem with the flip isn't that you can't hit good shots with it. It's that it is MUCH harder to be consistent from day to day, especially if you aren't a pro and therefore can't practice and play every day. If I could do nothing but play golf, I'm sure I could play scratch golf with a flip. But if I'm only playing twice a week, and only during the warmer months, I want to be able to shoot 77 when I have a bad day, not 87 - and I can't do that if I'm flipping it. When you learn to hit the ball with your pivot and a FLW, the game gets a little bit easier. Misses go straighter and there are fewer really bad misses.

Here's a simpler way of looking at it. When I learned the game of golf in the mid-80s, there was a fundamental, oft-repeated mantra. The goal was to build a golf swing that would repeat, and especially one that would repeat under pressure. To me, other things being equal, building your swing to have a FLW gives you a much more repeatable swing than sticking with your flip.

 

[TeddyIrons]

If flipping was acceptable, then why did Brian produce "Confessions of a former flipper"?

For what it's worth, I think Pecky has a great swing with a little bit of flip and is not far from not doing it. It's not something that is achieved overnight, and there are different degrees of flipping - he hasn't got far to go to hitting really low scores IMO.

 

[Richie3Jack]

But what 3jack says is right: the problem with the flip isn't that you can't hit good shots with it. It's that it is MUCH harder to be consistent from day to day, especially if you aren't a pro and therefore can't practice and play every day. If I could do nothing but play golf, I'm sure I could play scratch golf with a flip. But if I'm only playing twice a week, and only during the warmer months, I want to be able to shoot 77 when I have a bad day, not 87 - and I can't do that if I'm flipping it.

Here's a real life example. Lowest score I've ever shot in a round of golf was a 64, which I've shot twice. The second time I shot that it tied a course record on a 140 slope course. The very day before I shot an 88. A 24 stroke difference in less than 24 hours.



3JACK

 

[niblick1]

By the way, just to be clear, I am not exactly advocating flipping. I still sometimes struggle to manage that tendency. I play with a guy almost every weekend who can shoot 78 or 95 who is one of the worst flippers I've ever seen (it absoutely kills me not to tell him about COFF).

I was just throwing out the comments by Brian, for people who had not read them before, that at least make you pause to think about the relevance of parsing through high speed photographs to determine whether in close cases someone is or is not techically a flipper (the old argument last summer was about Ben Curtis).

 

[burners]

Haven't seen your ball flight, but sounds like it's time to start playing golf vs. "golf swing" if it's a lower score you are really after.

They don't draw pictures on the scoreboard.

 

[curtisj76]

fronesis, 3JACK, and others:

Why does flipping create such inconsistency? You would think if you flipped but were a good player you could produce fairly consistent flipped results. Know what I mean?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

fronesis, 3JACK, and others:

Why does flipping create such inconsistency? You would think if you flipped but were a good player you could produce fairly consistent flipped results. Know what I mean?

think of this way; most people flip to square the clubface to SOME degree so a better player will usually have less of a flip because in most cases they only need a bit more closing than a non-better player.

But that's ASSuming you always need the same amount of flip to square the face which you won't. It will vary especially with pivot speed and clubpath. So if either of those deviate much you are going to have massive contact problems.

Generally you can get away with a flip if you really have your swing grooved and it doesn't vary much.

 

[Zztop]

think of this way; most people flip to square the clubface to SOME degree so a better player will usually have less of a flip because in most cases they only need a bit more closing than a non-better player.

But that's ASSuming you always need the same amount of flip to square the face which you won't. It will vary especially with pivot speed and clubpath. So if either of those deviate much you are going to have massive contact problems.

Generally you can get away with a flip if you really have your swing grooved and it doesn't vary much.

Jim in your opinion, how many people that you teach or see playing ,flip, a rough percentage is fine.

 

[Richie3Jack]

fronesis, 3JACK, and others:

Why does flipping create such inconsistency? You would think if you flipped but were a good player you could produce fairly consistent flipped results. Know what I mean?

Screws up the geometry of the swing. The low point starts to move around and all of this causes you to rely much more on timing and hand/eye coordination. Timing and hand/eye coordination are needed regardless if you're a flipper or say Lee Trevino who is about anti-flip as you can get, but if you can lessen the reliance on it, the more consistent and accurate as you will be. Jim K. has been nailing all of the key points as well, per usual.

From my experience, I'd say about 90-95% of golfers flip. The Tour pros do not.




3JACK

 

[savydan]

David Graham won the U.S. Open with a slap-hinge release. Lot of people would say that's another term for a flip.

Didn't Trevor Immelmann say in G.D. to straighten the right wrist through impact? Isn't that really a timed flip? On the other hand, he seems to have fallen off the planet lately....

There's a bit of a difference between a hacker who hangs back and just flips at it versus a good player who uses a slap-hinge release.

 

[Zztop]

Screws up the geometry of the swing. The low point starts to move around and all of this causes you to rely much more on timing and hand/eye coordination. Timing and hand/eye coordination are needed regardless if you're a flipper or say Lee Trevino who is about anti-flip as you can get, but if you can lessen the reliance on it, the more consistent and accurate as you will be. Jim K. has been nailing all of the key points as well, per usual.

From my experience, I'd say about 90-95% of golfers flip. The Tour pros do not.




3JACK

Would you say that fixing or trying to fix other so called problems in a swing would not show the results that one was looking for if you still flip, as this affects impact and solid consistent shot making?

 

[Richie3Jack]

Didn't Trevor Immelmann say in G.D. to straighten the right wrist through impact? Isn't that really a timed flip? On the other hand, he seems to have fallen off the planet lately....
.

Slap hinge release is not flipping because the left wrist should still be flat at impact in the slap hinge release.

The Immelman article 'teaches' a flip, but Immelman at the time of the article was not flipping. It's really a horrendous article for golfers because it only provides more confusion and possibly ingrains a habit that golfer's have fought since steel shafts were created.

I haven't seen Immelman's swing since then, but if he's achieving the goal of what he's instructing in that article (to flip), he'll be lucky to have success on the Tarheel Tour, much less the PGA Tour.

Trust me, eliminating the flip is a great thing to have in your golf swing. Going through the process of achieving a FLW at impact is another thing because the feels and the concepts are so foreign to what most golfers have been doing for years and years that it's very difficult and elusive. But there's no doubt in my mind that Pecky can stop flipping if he keeps working on it and working on it correctly and once he stops flipping, his game will improve dramatically.




3JACK

 

[Richie3Jack]

Would you say that fixing or trying to fix other so called problems in a swing would not show the results that one was looking for if you still flip, as this affects impact and solid consistent shot making?

I wonder what Jim would think, but from my experience of talking to amateurs...and I play with a group of amateurs that range in the 3-20 handicap range twice a week...is that they try to fix stuff that doesn't need to be fixed or really has no or little impact on the swing. If I hear one more amateur who talks about keeping a straight left arm, I may try and rip their left arm off.

OTOH, if you're working on having say straight plane lines and start doing it very well, even if you flip you should see a lot of improvement. The same could be said if you're working on your pivot and develop a good pivot. The consistency won't be where it could be with a FLW at impact, but improvements will be there. And if you do improve your pivot, you're now greatly increasing your chances to eliminate your flip.

I've seen a lot of TGM AI's harp on 'educated hands', but I've seen quite a few players just simply improve their pivot and that allows their hands to be 'educated' naturally without really thinking about it. OTOH, I had to improve my pivot AND 'educate' my hands better to get rid of the flip. But at least I was working on something worthwhile.

I'd like to see all of the instructors here come up with a list of common swing fallacies they here over and over from students. Ought to be some good ones.




3JACK

 

[niblick1]

I wonder what Jim would think, but from my experience of talking to amateurs...and I play with a group of amateurs that range in the 3-20 handicap range twice a week...is that they try to fix stuff that doesn't need to be fixed or really has no or little impact on the swing. If I hear one more amateur who talks about keeping a straight left arm, I may try and rip their left arm off.

Amen.

And there's this guy I work with who may be in the flipping hall of fame. I play with with him 4-5 times a year. Good athlete, horrific golfer. He hits 5-6 topped, fat, or screaming thin missle-wedges a round. When he is going good he might shoot 83, when he's going bad he could shoot 120 (if he counted all his shots).

EVERY FRIGGIN' TIME HE HITS THIS SHOT HE SAYS "I LOOKED UP, IF I COULD JUST KEEP MY HEAD DOWN."

Another person who needs some very basic advice. And I have to bite my tongue every time we play. Ay carumba.

 

[Zztop]

I wonder what Jim would think, but from my experience of talking to amateurs...and I play with a group of amateurs that range in the 3-20 handicap range twice a week...is that they try to fix stuff that doesn't need to be fixed or really has no or little impact on the swing. If I hear one more amateur who talks about keeping a straight left arm, I may try and rip their left arm off.

OTOH, if you're working on having say straight plane lines and start doing it very well, even if you flip you should see a lot of improvement. The same could be said if you're working on your pivot and develop a good pivot. The consistency won't be where it could be with a FLW at impact, but improvements will be there. And if you do improve your pivot, you're now greatly increasing your chances to eliminate your flip.

I've seen a lot of TGM AI's harp on 'educated hands', but I've seen quite a few players just simply improve their pivot and that allows their hands to be 'educated' naturally without really thinking about it. OTOH, I had to improve my pivot AND 'educate' my hands better to get rid of the flip. But at least I was working on something worthwhile.

I'd like to see all of the instructors here come up with a list of common swing fallacies they here over and over from students. Ought to be some good ones.




3JACK

With a rough estimate of 90% to 95% of golfers flipping to some degree more or less, do you think that it's related to a poor pivot, either backswing or downswing and in some cases both, as the main cause of the flip?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Jim in your opinion, how many people that you teach or see playing ,flip, a rough percentage is fine.

Hard to say, believe it or not i don't teach THAT much. However i would say it's a sliding scale with a higher % of high handicaps down to a lower % of lower handicaps. The problem is most flip it for different reasons.

Lots of times better players flip because they have to from swinging too far right, being too laid off, too under the sweetspot etc.

Maybe to put it another way, i have never taught ANYONE who hasn't had some form of a flip but their level of flip was is different for everyone if that makes sense. I would say the first person who asked me for a lesson that truly didn't have a flip in their swing was a mini tour player.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

The Tour pros do not.

3JACK

I would say not much anymore but still some i'd bet on it. We don't see the swings of everyone on tour lol. But as brian said i belive in the flipper video, the game has become so much more dependent on power than those former flippers have tightened up their leakage to "keep up" perse.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Would you say that fixing or trying to fix other so called problems in a swing would not show the results that one was looking for if you still flip, as this affects impact and solid consistent shot making?

It depends really; let's say that you flip because you have a very poor pivot through the ball and basically stop rotating. That is going to create a BIG flip and probably a lot of left shots. But if i took that person and taught them to rotate more through the shot that is going to get rid of some of the flip for sure but isn't a guarantee that the flip would be gone forever just "lessened" from where they were before.

Hope that helps

 

[Zztop]

Thanks for the replies Jim, much appreciated!