am i flipping? (now with Manzella Answers)
- Thread starter pecky987
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ok, i dont have the club up my left arm through impact. but to me, my left wirst looks pretty flat-ish. it may look bent but my instincts tell me that it is the angle between the under portion of my forearm and the heel of my hand as my grip is a little on the strong side of neutral and my wrist is fully un-cocked at impact. im no lee trevino at and through impact, but more like ogilvy or maybe ernie.
and the rest of it is OK i think as well. unless you all disagree
and the rest of it is OK i think as well. unless you all disagree
Deadly_Scope
New
Flip
You think you know TGM?
Sorry to disappoint you but if you understood TGM you would know that this photo is evidence of nothing relating to the point in question. You might as well of put a picture of his address or finish for all the good it does in proving the point.
Flipping is when a straight relationship of the whole primary lever assembly is formed in relation to the inclined plane prior to impact.
Therefore the only pictures of validity are those taken at a period from impact or after impact but before the inline relationship has been passed.
Since this picture is taken after impact and after the inline condition has been passed, it proves nothing.
Not a Flip
A somewhat valid picture to show that this golfer doesn't flip in his otherwise manipulated, undynamic poor impact position.
Bravo!
However, since your relating it to a picture that isn't valid, that just makes posting it a useless exercise.
Flip
Yawn...
Not a Flip
All that this picture shows is that this golfer has the clubhead is going past the inline relationship at a very slightly slower rate. In terms of this discussion people don't really care about that and again proves absolutely nothing towards the point in question.
Although at this point I will chime in with my critique and say both players need work.
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This just isn't helpful. No one is having a contest on how well we "know TGM." We're trying to have a productive conversation about the fundamentals of the golf swing.
Thanks for providing your understanding of the TGM definition. But could you please translate it into a language that more of us can understand? To wit:
- what is the "whole primary lever assembly"? Does it differ from part of the "primary lever assembly"?
- WHAT relation does it need to form to the inclined plane? I don't see how plane angle has anything to do with this, but please explain how it does.
Are you simply saying that flipping occurs when the clubshaft reaches a position fully in-line with the left arm prior to impact? I can't parse your sentence to see how it means something different from that. So at this point you haven't shown me, or anyone else, how Richie3Jack is confused about the meaning of "flipping."
No. "Both players need work" is not a critique. It is a comment, a statement of opinion, perhaps even an aspersion. But a critique would require you to give a set of detailed explanations for what you see happening in the golf swing, what you see as wrong what is currently happening, how you would go about changing it, and what positive effects you think that change would create. Richie3Jack has provided a critique that contains all these elements. Jim, myself, and many others have discussed and modified that critique.
Your post, instead, seems much more intent on making you look clever than on helping out either the OP or anyone else understand or improve the golf swing.
mew09golfer
New
FLIP and Sequence
To my way of thinking, my own minor flip relates to starting down with arms too early. My pivot is fine it is just late relative to the arm drop.
Does anyone else sync with this cause of "flip"?
To my way of thinking, my own minor flip relates to starting down with arms too early. My pivot is fine it is just late relative to the arm drop.
Does anyone else sync with this cause of "flip"?
Deadly_Scope
New
Trust me, my post is right on the money.
I know this is just a small thing but when you say 'your understanding of the TGM definition' it basically says that I could be in error in a subtle pejorative manner which subsequently means your a hypocrit when at the end of the post when you say...
Awfully sorry to break your bubble but I actually can read and comprehend extremely well.
The primary lever assembly is the left arm and club.
The secondary lever assembly is the club.
I mentioned the inclined plane, I never mentioned plane angle. Its true that the inclined plane is always on an angle but by using this term it means that the degree of the angle is somehow important and I just don't see what the specific plane angle has in terms of pertinence to the discussion at hand.
Anyways answering the question, the inclined plane is needed for a definition to be correct.
For the intelligent people:
The club will always stay on the inclined plane. The hand always being on the club means that it will always be on the inclined plane (not quite true due to the LCOG but close enough for our purposes here).
But if we are to define a point in relation to the left arm which the clubhead passes with the hands act as 'a center' and the left arm is above this inclined plane you have to specific about this geometrical relationship by inscribing it from a vertical plane relationship (not to be confused with the inclined plane) using the two points from the left shoulder to the left wrist and the inclined plane itself. When the clubhead passes that vertical plane relationship with the inclined plane and the left arm prior to impact then you are flipping.
For the dumb people:
"Are you simply saying that flipping occurs when the clubshaft reaches a position fully in-line with the left arm prior to impact?"
What your saying is wrong because what your saying is the left arm and clubshaft go into one single line in relation to each other at one point in the stroke which would be pretty retarded. There is a line but you need the reference of the inclined plane to define it.
However as a teletubby description to get people on the rough idea of the topic it might work.
I have but you just don't know it.
An aspersion is kinda like slandering which doesn't really make any sence, perhaps you mean't assertion.
Anyways ....
However, I can use the word 'critique' in terms of my overall assessment of the two golf strokes. I don't have to tell you what leads me to that conclusion in order for me to offer it.
Don't try to outsmart me, im too quick for you...
And again using words that you don't really know shows you to being hypocritical when saying
Yikes...
Really?
Ok, lets take them one at a time.
Detailed explanations - Flip, No Flip, Flip, No Flip... yup thats really detailed explanation especially when you consider that the pictures provided were taken after the event which would of proved it and as such illustrated nothing.
If flipping were a crime and I was his lawyer. Whether he did flip or not, he would get off on reasonable doubt...
How you would go about changing it + what positive effects you think that change would create - Yeah 'flip, no flip, flip, no flip' that explains everything on how to change things and what positive effects it gives. I mean yeah, how could I not see that before...
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Z
Zztop
Guest
Deadly, do you think there is a primary cause that make people flip, if so what is the cure? Also do you agree that 90 to 95% of golfers flip?
Richie3Jack
New
Kevin Shields, undynamic poor impact position.
Now I've heard it all.
3JACK
Now I've heard it all.
3JACK
Notorious B.E.N.
New
Kevin Shields, undynamic poor impact position.
Now I've heard it all.
3JACK
Exactly what I was thinking.
Richie3Jack
New
I think it boils down to just poor concepts.
I would like to quiz some people at the local range someday and just ask them questions like where the divot should be in relation to where the ball was or should the left wrist be flat at impact, etc. I'm willing to be that the overwhelming majority would come away with flawed answers. The ranges are filled with golfers who think about scooping the ball to get it airborne. It's sort of like traveling to a place you've never been before by car. If the directions are completely wrong, you're not likely going to get to the place.
Then from there it's probably mostly the pivot and from there it's some lack of education of the hands.
In my own experience, being a good junior golfer and decent college player, I had no clue about the concept of the FLW at impact until I was in college. Then over the years I continued to flip. I did finally improve my pivot which helped, but for me it was understanding how to learn feel from mechanics and for me, it has to do a lot with bringing pressure at its fullest at impact. That's when the hands can continue to keep moving thru impact and the clubhead can lag behind.
For me, it's not a 'maintaining angles' thing or a 'getting the most amount of speed at impact' thing, it's a maintaining pressure thing thru and past impact.
3JACK
Gentlemen,
Would someone be kind enough to fully explain a 'slap hinge release'?
Thanks in advance.
Z
Zztop
Guest
I agree with a lot of what your saying, but i was wondering that with all the info out there about a flw at impact, begs the question ,why can't people achieve this condition ? since 90-95% of golfers have some % of flip. I'm sure there are various reasons, could one reason be that golfer's don't understand how the clubhead actually contacts the ball, i.e. what part of the clubhead touches what part of the ball, at what descending angle? etc.,etc. Golfers have heard the generic terms hit down on it, your trying to lift it, etc.
etc.
But do instructors take the time to show students how the clubhead actually impacts the ball so they can see it at a speed that one can use for understanding it? Iv'e seen instruction in books, videos and live that show an instructor hitting a ball then pointing at the divot and saying: look small ball first,: big ball second, or look divot after you strike the ball. That's like a magician saying see i made the elephant dissappear!
Great! all i'm thinking is: now show me how!
Slap-hinge release is actively cupping the left wrist while straighting the right wrist through impact.
However.....the hands are still leading the clubhead through impact and the motion is done with some degree of control as to keep the blade square to the arc through impact thus maintaining a "square" face and a downward strike (with an iron).
The opposite would be a "push" release where the flat left wrist is maintained as long as possible through impact.
You could think of the two as extremes so to speak and good golf can be played somewhere between these two.
Richie3Jack
New
I believe you're on the right track of thinking and that's why I think Trackman is a wonderful device for all sorts of players because you can use the data and then say 'hit down more' or 'hit down less' and then when you get it right you can just use feel to repeat it over and over.
But most golfers I believe think that the divot should be under where the ball was or even worse...behind it.
I started working with one of my neighbors who played to a 6 handicap at one time and is now about a 15 handicap. In the past month I've shown him just about every single way you can think of how the ball is struck with an iron (no scooping, hit the ball first then take a divot, etc). I've shown him videos, diagrams, etc. And just today he asked me another question wondering if you take the divot at the ball or out in front.
But do instructors take the time to show students how the clubhead actually impacts the ball so they can see it at a speed that one can use for understanding it? Iv'e seen instruction in books, videos and live that show an instructor hitting a ball then pointing at the divot and saying: look small ball first,: big ball second, or look divot after you strike the ball. That's like a magician saying see i made the elephant dissappear!
Great! all i'm thinking is: now show me how!
Most of the ones I've seen do not. Although I don't think focusing on the flip is the first thing an instructor should do with every student. Depends on the student.
3JACK
Z
Zztop
Guest
Thanks for the info. I think your right about golfers thinking and trying to get the leading edge of the clubface under the ball. It just looks like it fits in there so nicely.
It just seems right.
TeddyIrons
New
I think I'm qualified to reply to thisI agree with a lot of what your saying, but i was wondering that with all the info out there about a flw at impact, begs the question ,why can't people achieve this condition ? since 90-95% of golfers have some % of flip. I'm sure there are various reasons, could one reason be that golfer's don't understand how the clubhead actually contacts the ball, i.e. what part of the clubhead touches what part of the ball, at what descending angle? etc.,etc. Golfers have heard the generic terms hit down on it, your trying to lift it, etc.
etc.
But do instructors take the time to show students how the clubhead actually impacts the ball so they can see it at a speed that one can use for understanding it? Iv'e seen instruction in books, videos and live that show an instructor hitting a ball then pointing at the divot and saying: look small ball first,: big ball second, or look divot after you strike the ball. That's like a magician saying see i made the elephant dissappear!
Great! all i'm thinking is: now show me how!
as I've been a long-time flipper in the search for more power and consistency.Really, all the information that is out there, is nearly all about swing paths, set up address, and so on. There is very little information about impact. Pros that I've been too have never addressed impact, except one indirectly who would tell me to try and keep the right hand bent on the downswing, but he never told me why I was to do that. At some point in the search for good golf, you hear that you must have your hands in front of the ball at impact, but that does not automatically translate in the mind of the poor golfer to also mean flat left wrist bent right wrist unfortunately. The poor golfer in his head thinks that holding the wrists like that would be a massive power loss! It took me a long time to get to the point where I realized how bad a problem flipping was. The poor golfer also has no concept of hitting and swinging - he just throws the arms at the ball. The focus is all wrong.
Now that I know what flipping is, I have successfully improved my short game and know what it feels like to compress the ball. Now it's the hard part - carrying that to the full shot - but at least I feel as though I know where I'm going now.
thegreatone
New
I would like to see the down the line video looks to me like the shaft seems steep 1/2 way down even though the angle looks good I think it's steep, if so flipping just happens and the flat left wrist is hard to get to. If you have down the line videos those would be of intrest to check the angle. If the angle is good then you probally need to work on the chip-pitch-punch drills to develop a flat left wrist at impact. I agree if you do the distance will increase somewhat. Is your ball flight high?
very
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