I don't care who you are, now that's funny!
A flip (my definition) is a bent left wrist at impact. 'Throwaway' means that the angle is being 'released' before impact.
Not exactly.
The TGM definition of "Throwaway" is simple, a bent left wrist (or its equivalent) before the follow-through (when both arms are straight past impact).
One can have throwaway and still not flip at impact.
Because they "flip" before the follow-through.
And BTW, a flip means that the hands speed the whole club past the left arm and left shoulder.
Which is a Throwaway cause, albeit, not the only one.
I know there's not a ton of love for TGM here (although I don't think it's villified here either)
We—at the Manzella Golf Academy—wake up every morning, and go to sleep every night in pursuit of golfing truth.
Period.
If a part of The Golfing Machine is SCIENTIFIC TRUTH, I praise it.
If it is OPINION, I point it out.
If it is INCORRECT, I expose it.
Same with any other book, methodology, device, product, technique, etc.
(In the following statement, "You" is meant collectively)
Now if you are in the business of promoting TGM as the gospel according to Homer, written as the inspired word of the Man upstairs, and therefore infallible in every way, you are either coo-coo for Cocco Puffs, a marketer in used-car salesman sense of the term, scored in the teens on the Wonderlic, or all—or some—of the above. And, you think I am Julius Caesar, an Orange Julius, or Oran "Juice" Jones.
...but once I understood the idea behind learning feel from mechanics and then understood how TGM is really a feel oriented book (surprising to some with all the mechanical jargon in there), that's when I stopped flipping and my ballstriking and scores dropped big time. I think learning feel from mechanics really cannot be disputed to me.
Some folks NEVER EVER respond to Mechanics.
If you actually TEACH GOLF for a living, and not sell a method, you have to give a fair amount of lessons to folks like that.
And, believe it or not, I have made many a golfer into a very good player, without EVERY MENTIONING lag, lag pressure, monitoring your right forefinger, tracing the plane line with your right forearm, or anything even remotely close.
I gave a lesson to Chris Paul about a month ago. He was flipping it so bad, you couldn't believe it. Cold topping his driver. He had a NASTY 10-finger super-strong grip.
I put his hands on the club like a golfer (biggest hands on a 6-footer you ever saw), and showed him how I wanted him to hit the ball with the whole club and not just the clubhead.
260 dead straight on the 5th ball.
"There's that Brian, going straight to Total Motion."
In other words, I can suggest some feels and they may work, but it usually doesn't really do you any good until you get some drills for flipping and then really ask yourself that when you use the proper mechanics, how does it feel to you?
Chris didn't need no stinkin' drills.
He was about the 1234th person I fixed in 10 balls or less.
The rest is just practice.
CoFF is filled with concepts and drills to help get rid of the flip that pretty much fit exactly with your swing pattern. And NSA 2.0 jives with that as well.
If someone asked me how many folks I show "Flipper"-type drills to in private lessons, you might be surprised find out my answer.
About one every few MONTHS or so.
You can play good golf with a flip. I played to a +2 over ten years ago with a flip...Now without the flip I'm playing to a +0.3...the biggest improvement is in consistency. I can't tell you how refreshing it is to not shoot those outrageously bad, out-of-nowhere scores...For that, I say getting rid of the flip is almost invaluable. At least to my psyche.
Would I trade a golfer with a flip and control of the D-Plane for one with the left wrist of Ben Hogan and little control of the D-Plane.
You betcha.
Homer (Kelley) gets a lot of credit for working with what he had at the time. This site just wants to advance..get things in line with new technologies and discoveries.
Brian is a GSED, and has said he refers to that as golf instruction's equivalent of Harvard, but has learned a lot more in the "real world"
I enjoy reading your posts, as they are normally well-written, but that statement seems to contain a veiled slam at our host for not being a yellow book thumping literalist, which I am glad he is not.
I can't wait for the next new thing I get to learn.
While I go to EVERY Golfing Machine Summit, anxiously awaiting Physicist Dr. Aaron Zick's next presentation, a legion of TGM literalists stay away.
One of them called Joe Daniels, who runs the TGM, LLC, on the phone and asked him:
"Why would you have Dr. Zick there proving Homer wrong?"
Next subject.
I wouldn't say that is flipping. You said it was well struck and you did take a divot after the ball, I would just say that is minimal shaft lean at impact. Even if your left wrist is a hair bent at impact, the ball doesn't know.
Nice swing.
I complete agree with Mathew (Deadly Scope).
If I were a lawyer, I'd win on poor evidence.
You need a view from the perfect angle to see for sure, and you need a WAY BETTER camera.
Plus, I do think in this OP's case, getting rid of the flip would increase his power quite noticeably because he loses quite a bit of lag pressure there.
Lag Pressure has absolutely NOTHING to do with adding power.
Zilch.
looking at my swing as objectively as i can, it looks pretty much like a SD model. pivot drag off the ball, counterfall, toss release etc
and it looks like im snapping the chain pretty good
er as for distance and direction, irons are goin pretty much wer im looking. mid to short irons are dialed in with an occasional pull. long irons are struck very nicely but cut/slicing. cant hit fairway woods and driver, with a slightly altered motion, is straight with the occasional hook/block
getting prettttty darn close to shooting in the 70's. shot 81 in medal before last with a 4-putt haha and 81 in last medal with a double at the easiest hole on the course and 2 stupid 3-putts
Looks pretty good to me.
But, I'd give your lesson from the DTL view. So where is THAT video?
It's actually not a slam at Brian. In my experience there are posters here that once anybody brings up something about TGM they tend to dismiss it and I personally think it's because they misinterpret Brian's philosophies.
Essentially, I was making a reference to a concept of TGM that once I understood it, my game improved tremendously and I had a feeling that a faction of posters would immediately dismiss that concept as outdated because it's part of TGM.
If it is right, its right.
If it is wrong.
I really think if I did a post, or blog on 10 great concepts from The Golfing Machine that can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, my forum members wouldn't care WHERE the concepts come from.
There are many a Manzella Forum Member that is here in exile. You can only take so much literalism from a book with so many flaws.
If they flip and hit it better rather than not, so is that a problem?
Happens every day, on all four corners of the globe.
Really.
One of the most astute things I ever read from Brian was how golfer's can hit it better with a flip than when they try not to flip. But the trick is to get the golfer hitting it poorly when they do flip to help promote in their brain to not flip.
You see, it doesn't HAVE TO be learned in a drill, OR with a feel from a mechanic.
If flipping was acceptable, then why did Brian produce "Confessions of a former flipper"?
Three reasons, to be quite honest.
#1 - To BLOW UP those who say the best way to learn not to flip is by NOT using your pivot.
#2 - To make the first watchable, concise, funny, golf video with real solid information ever done.
#3 - As a "Thank You Card" to Ben Doyle.
Confessions of a Former Flipper
How Ben Doyle Taught me to have the flattest left wrist in golf.
fronesis, 3JACK, and others:
Why does flipping create such inconsistency? You would think if you flipped but were a good player you could produce fairly consistent flipped results. Know what I mean?
No proof of ANY KIND that it does.
I think that flipping makes it harder to make good contact, if you don't already have good contact.
And, it makes it easier to hit certain shots.
We think it makes the ball spin less too.
Screws up the geometry of the swing.
It doesn't help.
But this silly diagram, isn't CLOSE to what really happens either:
There's a bit of a difference between a hacker who hangs back and just flips at it versus a good player who uses a slap-hinge release.
No doubt.
I haven't seen Immelman's swing since then, but if he's achieving the goal of what he's instructing in that article (to flip), he'll be lucky to have success on the Tarheel Tour, much less the PGA Tour.
If 100% of the PGA Tour pros actually did what they were trying to do, 150 would make some cuts, and Peter Kostis would vomit on his BizHub.
...there's no doubt in my mind that Pecky can stop flipping if he keeps working on it and working on it correctly and once he stops flipping, his game will improve dramatically.
His potential would increase faster than his scores would decrease.
Because I think his problems are D-Plane issues.
I've seen a lot of TGM AI's harp on 'educated hands', but I've seen quite a few players just simply improve their pivot and that allows their hands to be 'educated' naturally without really thinking about it.
I'd agree 100%
With a rough estimate of 90% to 95% of golfers flipping to some degree more or less, do you think that it's related to a poor pivot, either backswing or downswing and in some cases both, as the main cause of the flip?
Brian Manzella's Top Ten Causes of Flipping
1. Trying to get the clubhead to move in the direction of the intended ball flight.
2. Trying to square an open clubface
3. Trying to add loft-open a clubface that is destined to produce a big hook
4. Pivot Stops too early and not far enough forward
5. Trying to add speed to just the clubhead
6. Illusion of forward lean
7. Trying to fix a path that is going to be too far in-to-out
8. Because someone told them to
9. Poorly fit clubs (too flat will do it)
10. Because nobody told them how to do it right
i don't think i get it...
how is he flipping if he is getting ball-turf contact? low point would be behind the ball if he was flipping.
Not so.
Lots of flippers have ball-divot contact.
Remember this:
95% of all good players have MORE DEGREES OF FORWARD LEAN than degrees of DOWNWARD STRIKE!!!
ok, i dont have the club up my left arm through impact. but to me, my left wirst looks pretty flat-ish. it may look bent but my instincts tell me that it is the angle between the under portion of my forearm and the heel of my hand as my grip is a little on the strong side of neutral and my wrist is fully un-cocked at impact. im no lee trevino at and through impact, but more like ogilvy or maybe ernie.
and the rest of it is OK i think as well. unless you all disagree
Like I said, I want to see the DTL view!
Kevin Shields, undynamic poor impact position.
He is getting better though.
So i guess it comes down to when the bend in the left wrist happens.If it happens before impact then you have flipped.If it happens just after impact like in the swing Pecky posted,then its timing the flip.If it happens well after impact then you truly have not flipped.
Well said.
I personally prefer the Taly.
I have found that these kind of things do my lessons more harm them good.
Does BManz and his posse "approve" of the Taly or does it promote too much forward lean?
PS I have a tac tic and I think it's junk, never fit me very good as I'm sorta skinny.
The Tic-Tac is good for someone who learns better through sound.
Other than that....
I will say, I have not used one in YEARS.
Whew...!
