An Unhappy Customer

[vjsinger]

I find your top 3 list interesting as a teacher:

1) Be the best.
2) Help people (curious, why isn't this first?)
3) Get good information out there.

Since we're not being delicate, or nice. Why haven't I gotten any better since having lessons with Brian, 4 Hrs instruction and a round of golf. ($800 later) OR 3 lessons with Kevin ($300)? What has gotten better is my short game, only because I practiced that like a mad man along with the things Brian and Kevin have given me in my swing. BTW, it's hard to work on your short game 3 hrs a day for 3 months straight because you have no idea what to do with the swing that I have been taught. Why have I left lessons with you guys, practiced my ASS off for a couple of months on the things you gave me, and the swing hasn't gotten any better? So, What does a guy like me, someone who REALLY wants to play well and practices his butt off, and isn't getting any better with the swing? I can't afford to spend this much money in lessons and not see any benefits. Please don't ignore me or delete this post!!

 

[dannyc]

I find your top 3 list interesting as a teacher:

1) Be the best.
2) Help people (curious, why isn't this first?)
3) Get good information out there.

Since we're not being delicate, or nice. Why haven't I gotten any better since having lessons with Brian, 4 Hrs instruction and a round of golf. ($800 later) OR 3 lessons with Kevin ($300)? What has gotten better is my short game, only because I practiced that like a mad man along with the things Brian and Kevin have given me in my swing. BTW, it's hard to work on your short game 3 hrs a day for 3 months straight because you have no idea what to do with the swing that I have been taught. Why have I left lessons with you guys, practiced my ASS off for a couple of months on the things you gave me, and the swing hasn't gotten any better? So, What does a guy like me, someone who REALLY wants to play well and practices his butt off, and isn't getting any better with the swing? I can't afford to spend this much money in lessons and not see any benefits. Please don't ignore me or delete this post!!

ha! if all that mattered was the amount of time you put in...

 

[spktho]

I find your top 3 list interesting as a teacher:

1) Be the best.
2) Help people (curious, why isn't this first?)
3) Get good information out there.

Since we're not being delicate, or nice. Why haven't I gotten any better since having lessons with Brian, 4 Hrs instruction and a round of golf. ($800 later) OR 3 lessons with Kevin ($300)? What has gotten better is my short game, only because I practiced that like a mad man along with the things Brian and Kevin have given me in my swing. BTW, it's hard to work on your short game 3 hrs a day for 3 months straight because you have no idea what to do with the swing that I have been taught. Why have I left lessons with you guys, practiced my ASS off for a couple of months on the things you gave me, and the swing hasn't gotten any better? So, What does a guy like me, someone who REALLY wants to play well and practices his butt off, and isn't getting any better with the swing? I can't afford to spend this much money in lessons and not see any benefits. Please don't ignore me or delete this post!!

I think your question is a little vague. What do you mean the swing is not getting any better? Ball flight? Direction control? Distance control? Or are you talking about scoring better?

IMO you need to discuss this with Brian and/or Kevin and be very specific in what you are doing, what you want to accomplish and make sure that what you are practicing is what they have taught you.

 

[Kevin Shields]

VJ, very important post. Please be more specific. SInce we're being honest here, let me tell you something. When I went to Brian, one of the first things I told him was "you've really got your hands full today, im your worst nightmare". I knew my swing was alot of compensations. I went from alot better really fast (blow up lesson) to in the dumps (couldnt keep it on the course). Then i got a tune up lesson before a tournament and hit it fantastic, then it was gone.

Now ive hit balls for about three months and honestly havent made one single terrible swing. Not one! Im looking forward to this season like never before. This april will mark 3 years since i saw Brian for the first time. It is definatley a journey. Even when it was bad, the info was so good i knew i had to just stay the course, keep learning and not quit.

Please be more specific. Are your worst shots worse than before? Better shots not better? Good ones too infrequent? Lost conceptually? Are you just standing still? Are you at odds with conflicting info? What are your expectations?

I dont want to start a precedent here that I'll regret, but i'll send a refund if this doesnt get resolved. I have some thoughts as to why this has occurred but want to delve into it further.

BTW, what do you mean "since we're not being delicate, or nice"? What does that mean?

 

[Kevin Shields]

VJ's post reminds me of one of my first golf lessons.....it was in my late twenties. I travelled to Sea Island to see Jack Lumpkin to the tune of $300. It was a good lesson, alot of stuff I prob needed. I went home and practiced hard, I'm still an expert at doing one of his drills.

I didnt get any better. Maybe even a touch worse. Why?

My opinion is when you travel to see someone, there's always a slight risk because when you go home, you really arent quite sure you're doing it the right way. Thats why around here is different. You ca always post up your swing and ask questions. I couldnt do that back then. Looking back now, i got a really good lesson, but what I needed was for him to be on me checking it for 6 months. I had some holes in my swing that needed constant attention. I couldnt travel nor could i afford to do it.

VJ, lets get this out in the open even more. Post some swings, get more specific on some stuff. You picked up the game late and some things came naturally to you. I think you skipped some ABCs so to speak and went into fixing mode. I could be at fault for that as well.

 

[vjsinger]

Okay, Specifics. I didn't get any better i.e. I had the same misses due to not being able to control low point. I hit it fat, left, right too short with the irons, too long with the irons, slice the driver, hook the driver etc. so when I say I didn't hit it any better , I mean I didn't hit it any better.

When I said, "since we're not being delicate or nice" I mean, I've been pissed off about me not getting better for a while now and I didn't say anything because I wanted to find the appropriate moment to bring it up so everyone that regulars the site may learn. Bringing it up in this way allows everyone to see that this does occur and how it may be handled.

I'd like to post some swings, but I have been so disgusted with what has happened over the last few months that I deleted all the swings that I made while seeing you guys and have started over.

For those that don't know, The first lesson I ever took was with Kevin. When I showed up I hit it awful, i.e. all over the place, but mostly thin and right. During that lesson we worked on components of NSA, specifically twistaway and learning some full roll in the follow through. I hit it a little better in that lesson and went home practiced like you wouldn't believe, BUT stagnated. I saw Kevin twice more and we then worked on a variety of things to fix my swing, all resulting in me being more confused with what the hell I was supposed to do than before. I just felt like I was experimented on more than I had been given the right information for my swing. I know this comes across as harsh and maybe I'm just a big goof, but I'm pissed, lost and still not very good at hitting a golf ball with a full swing.

 

[Kevin Shields]

It does come across as harsh and you saying you've been pissed off and was experimented on pisses me off. PM your address.

As for your issues, how long did you work on NSA components? Did Brian give you conflicting information. When and why did it stagnate?

I felt all along that your transition was too violent with too much much unwinding leading to a high left arm a throw of the club to catch up. If you stayed back, stayed closed, tilted a bit more to the ball it could send your hands lower and alow them to swing past your body. Where was the confusion? I want to know because it will help me understand your dissatisfaction.

 

[vjsinger]

Fast forward to Brian.. I bought Brian's lesson package and we decided to split it up. I saw him for two hours in Louisville, a two and a half hour drive for me. When I saw him that day, I had the same issues going on. I didn't really have one miss except for bad. Brian, bent me over more, changed my grip, fixed my shoulder alignment at address, left the BS alone(standard B.S.) and tried to help me with the DS by getting my hips more underneath me and getting my body to turn through the ball. I had trouble doing some of that and really hit it bad for a few weeks, but one day when on the range I started to hit it a little better, don't know why.

I then went to see him about a month in and half or two months later to finish off the package and he changed alot of thigs with my BS. Steeper shoulder turn, even more inside hands, a still head with sliding hips and that really screwed me up. We played our round and I had no clue about where it might go. In the round most of the bad one's went right. I did hit some really good shots that day, but most of them weren't very good. I went home and worked on my swing A TON. I worked on the pivot in the mirror at home for hours a night. I would go to the range, video the swing, apparently for no reason and just not get it. I started to progressively get worse and started having back issues, so I decided to go back to the old pivot and had really good success with that for about 3 weeks. I shot my lowest round ever, hit some amazingly sick shots and then , like a black plague swept over me I went right back to sucking, with the same issues as before.

As I type this I realize this is not the nicest way to go about this. I should have come to you guys long ago, but I really am not sure that you can help me with my swing. This is why I'm so upset, hurt and just flat out PO'ed. I see the posts that are on here sometimes with Brian being very critical of other teachers and their teachings and it boils my blood a little. I understand why you do it that way, to learn, but, isn't there a better way? I have heard Brian refer to his staff as the best and I say good for you guys if that's true, but I really would like some help from "the best" whoever that is. So far, I feel like I haven't gotten it here.

 

[vjsinger]

It does come across as harsh and you saying you've been pissed off and was experimented on pisses me off. PM your address.

As for your issues, how long did you work on NSA components? Did Brian give you conflicting information. When and why did it stagnate?

I felt all along that your transition was too violent with too much much unwinding leading to a high left arm a throw of the club to catch up. If you stayed back, stayed closed, tilted a bit more to the ball it could send your hands lower and alow them to swing past your body. Where was the confusion? I want to know because it will help me understand your dissatisfaction.

I won't PM my address. I'm sorry your pissed, double your rage and that's how I feel. I worked on the NSA components for 5 minutes in the lesson, then started pulling it and you told me in the lesson that I might not be able to use that for long and we got rid of the twistaway the final lesson. Yes Brian gave me conflicting info. You never said to me anything about a high left arm, I don't even know what that means? I didn't have much success with staying back and staying closed, too impatient, I didn't know how to get there and that's why I saw Brian and eventually started to hurt my back.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Rose Gardens...

I find your top 3 list interesting as a teacher:

1) Be the best.
2) Help people (curious, why isn't this first?)
3) Get good information out there.

The reason that "help people" isn't first is pretty simple, as a teacher, you have to have good material to teach someone you want to help, you need to know how to get that information across to a myriad of different students, and you need to be able to do it in a way to not make the student worse long term.

In my case, I wouldn't spend as NEARLY as much time—way more than any instructor I have ever know—researching, digging, discussing outside of any website, traveling, spending money on gear, etc, if I didn't want to be the best.

That's just me.

It would be VERY EASY to teach some safe stuff, draw lines, build a building near my home, sit in some a/c, and make enough money.

I'd rather sell Allstate.

Since we're not being delicate, or nice. Why haven't I gotten any better since having lessons with Brian, 4 Hrs instruction and a round of golf. ($800 later) OR 3 lessons with Kevin ($300)?

Because as teachers, we have failed to do our job properly for you so far.

After teaching for 28 years, I can truthful say that a vast majority of students improved short-term and long-term working with me.

But that's not 100%, nowhere near.

I watched a video the other day of a some teachers that put the blame on the student for not continuing to improve.

To me, that's is a royal copout.

Every single student that has taken lessons from me, and not gotten their money's worth, or gotten better (two different things), did so because I made a mistake somewhere.

I prescribed the wrong pattern, or changed the one they had when I shouldn't have. Or, I gave out a drill that didn't do what it was supposed to do. Or any number of things, like I was too lenient or not lenient enough.

Totally on me.

So what do I do about it?

Well in your case, or anyone's case, if they are not happy, I will be happy to teach them on the house to fix whatever needs to for them to be satisfied.

Or if you would rather a refund, we can do that as well.

When I sub-contracted my house, I had a lot of subs to deal with. More than half had to come out and rectify their work to my satisfaction.

They did, and they all fixed their mistakes or shortcomings.

I'd like the chance to so the same.

...(I) have no idea what to do with the swing that I have been taught. Why have I left lessons with you guys, practiced my ASS off for a couple of months on the things you gave me, and the swing hasn't gotten any better? So, What does a guy like me, someone who REALLY wants to play well and practices his butt off, and isn't getting any better with the swing?

Quite simply, 90% of the time that means you are working on the wrong things, or working on the right things the wrong way.

That is the 90% we are almost completely responsible for.

I say almost completely, because without seeing a golf swing fairly often, they have a way of going in some crazy directions.

Sometimes, that is not really the teacher's fault.

The best successes I have had as a teacher was with students I saw very often. Sometimes that it just not possible for the student to have me there all the time.

I have always said teaching golf is more like gardening than anything else. And when the weeds grow in, the gardener can pretty much fix it in a jiffy. If he is there the day it happens or soon after.

10% of the time, golfers don't get better even when they are working on the right things the right way.

There is a lot of that on the PGA TOUR. Sometimes the talent+time+physicality+equipment+instruction+practice+athleticism can all be focused in the right direction, and maybe just temporarily maxed out.

In your case VJ, you are a big string guy, with a lot of talent. You have practiced you way to being in the 1 percentile for all adult golfers who have played golf for less than two years.

You deserve a lot of credit for that.

You can certainly reach your goals, but after your rapid improvement, their is sure to be some leveling off, and some down turns.

Mastery in any endeavor certainly follows this process 99% of the time.

That is in NO WAY absolving me of not helping you enough for you satisfaction.

And my offers stand.

I am very sorry you are disappointed in my instruction so far, and that Kevin's has not helped as much as you'd like as well.

 

[vjsinger]

Brian,

Thank you very much for taking the high road on this one and showing everyone your class and humility. I apologize for doing it this way, but I thought it may be a good lesson for all(haters and followers) to see how you handle a situation like this. You proved that you are a very reasonable, upstanding and classy person, thank you. I would be very grateful to take you up on your offer, so that I can get my head on straight and hopefully fix it. At the very least, come up with both a short term and long term plan on how I can be successful. Thanks again.

-VJ

 

[ZAP]

The fact that this discussion is happening out in the open on this site gives me even more confidence in Brian and his staff.
Golf is a hard game. Struggling with it is even harder. I have seen the most reserved people I know reduced to raging maniacs. I can understand his frustration. I do hope he will allow you guys to keep at it.

 

[Brian Manzella]

More gardening...

I hit it fat, left, right too short with the irons, too long with the irons, slice the driver, hook the driver etc. so when I say I didn't hit it any better, I mean I didn't hit it any better.

The first lesson I ever took was with Kevin. When I showed up I hit it awful, i.e. all over the place, but mostly thin and right.

After I talked to Kevin about it, he told me that you were nervous and started with a few shanks on your first few shots.

During that lesson we worked on...twistaway and learning some full roll in the follow through. I hit it a little better in that lesson and went home practiced like you wouldn't believe, BUT stagnated.

I saw Kevin twice more and we then worked on a variety of things to fix my swing, all resulting in me being more confused with what the hell I was supposed to do than before. I just felt like I was experimented on more than I had been given the right information for my swing.

There is difference between "experimenting on" and "trying multiple solutions."

I would call experimenting trying something on a student you have never seen work, like something you read in a book, or heard at a seminar.

We are not method teachers.

We don't say you HAVE TO be in any specific locations at any specific times in the swing.

Teachers who teach that way NEVER look like they are experimenting.

Bless 'em.

Take Lindsay Gahm.

I have taught her since she was about 7 year old. If you look at her swing and think that is the swing we started out trying to get to, you'd would be wrong.

That is the swing she SCORES BEST with. And the one she HITS IT BEST with.

Someone as talented as her could make ANY swing.

Could she play better with one that looked like someone elses?

Could Trevino? Could Miller Barber?

I know this comes across as harsh and maybe I'm just a big goof, but I'm pissed, lost and still not very good at hitting a golf ball with a full swing.

For those who don't, VJ, playing less than 18 months, played on real course with Adam Mallory who plays D1 golf, and myself, and hit it up with us, and hit a lot of greens.

All with a brand new backswing from that morning.

VJ=anything but a hacker who can't hit the ball.

Fast forward to Brian. Brian, bent me over more, changed my grip, fixed my shoulder alignment at address, left the backswing alone(standard backswing) and tried to help me with the downswing by getting my hips more underneath me and getting my body to turn through the ball. I had trouble doing some of that and really hit it bad for a few weeks, but one day when on the range I started to hit it a little better, don't know why.

I remember that lesson.

VJ had a standard orthodox backswing, but these days most would disagree. He had a flat shoulder turn and nice move behind the ball.

He just "arm and handed it" out there and needed to rotate more and tilt more through the ball.

Standard stuff.

Would most people hit it worse that way?

For a while maybe, but EVERYONE need both of those things. In person he did find, which showed me that he COULD do it.

I then went to see him about a month in and half or two months later...and he changed alot of thigs with my backswing. Steeper shoulder turn, even more inside hands, a still head with sliding hips and that really screwed me up. We played our round and I had no clue about where it might go. In the round most of the bad one's went right. I did hit some really good shots that day, but most of them weren't very good.

When I can I try to play some with my students to see whether or not they can implement it on the course or not.

Like I said, we played with Adam Mallory, and Adam said he "hit it like a 7 handicapper that had been playing 10 years."

This was with the totally re-worked backswing.

Not everyone can play better with a rotated shoulder turn, but that day it looked doable.
______________________

So basically, I have given VJ two 2-hour lessons.

It that point in time for someone who WILL BE a scratch golfer, the teacher/student relationship is still very new, and so it is easy to make adjustments that are less than ideal, because in my opinion, building a golf swing is NOT like baking a cake.

It is more like painting a picture.

And not one of those "paint-by-numbers" ones, either.

Brian,

Thank you very much for taking the high road on this one and showing everyone your class and humility. I apologize for doing it this way, but I thought it may be a good lesson for all (haters and followers) to see how you handle a situation like this.

You proved that you are a very reasonable, upstanding and classy person, thank you.

I would be very grateful to take you up on your offer, so that I can get my head on straight and hopefully fix it. At the very least, come up with both a short term and long term plan on how I can be successful. Thanks again.

No problem.

 

[JThompson]

VJ, what has transpired in your game from this conversation (linked below) to now?

Previous Post by VJ

From what I have searched for and read on these forums I can gather you are relatively new to golf. Seems like you started playing Fall 2008. How good did you expect to be in 2.5 yrs time? It sounds to me like you want to be an elite golfer after just a couple years of practice. (assumed from what you described above) If that be the case, I would consider tempering your expectations.

Think of it this way. . .
Say you just started playing baseball. What would be your expectations? Baseball is a difficult sport. Very few people can hit a pitch traveling a conservative 70mph from 60ft away after 6-7 years of practice. Almost none can do it at an elite level. 100mph! Would you be this upset if you were playing baseball and couldn't perform with the elite after only 2 years?

Don't get me wrong. . . you should see improvement! But satisfaction is purely dependent on expectations. If your expectations are unrealistically high. . . then some sense of satisfaction will never be achieved. (we can get into if good players are ever satisfied later. . . I am talking about a different type of satisfaction)

I wish you nothing but the best. With patients, huge amounts of PROPER practice, and lessons from the best (Manzella Academy instructors). You could be an elite golfer after 8-10yrs.

Just my thoughts.

 

[ZAP]

As someone who has played this game for more than 20 years I have a tendency to agree with the above post. Looking back at myself after 10 years of playing I still had no clue what I was doing out there. After starting to look at this site a year or two ago I feel like a total beginner in terms of my understanding of the golf swing and the physics of it. This site has a totally different feel to it compared to other places I have tried to learn. I look forward to making a road trip if the snow ever melts in Ohio.

 

[vjsinger]

VJ, what has transpired in your game from this conversation (linked below) to now?

Previous Post by VJ

From what I have searched for and read on these forums I can gather you are relatively new to golf. Seems like you started playing Fall 2008. How good did you expect to be in 2.5 yrs time? It sounds to me like you want to be an elite golfer after just a couple years of practice. (assumed from what you described above) If that be the case, I would consider tempering your expectations.

Think of it this way. . .
Say you just started playing baseball. What would be your expectations? Baseball is a difficult sport. Very few people can hit a pitch traveling a conservative 70mph from 60ft away after 6-7 years of practice. Almost none can do it at an elite level. 100mph! Would you be this upset if you were playing baseball and couldn't perform with the elite after only 2 years?

Don't get me wrong. . . you should see improvement! But satisfaction is purely dependent on expectations. If your expectations are unrealistically high. . . then some sense of satisfaction will never be achieved. (we can get into if good players are ever satisfied later. . . I am talking about a different type of satisfaction)

I wish you nothing but the best. With patients, huge amounts of PROPER practice, and lessons from the best (Manzella Academy instructors). You could be an elite golfer after 8-10yrs.

Just my thoughts.

Jeremy,

Thank you for your post. The sheer euphoria I have expressed in my older posts have been a combination of me having fun trying to learn and having a strong belief that I am in the right place(this forum). However, as time has worn on I have been very unhappy with my progress, believing that I already should be to a scratch level. Are these naive thoughts?, maybe. The fact is, I am used to being really good at something that requires practice,time,hard work, effective practice etc. You see, I am a very good musician. In music, I am considered to be in the top 1-2% of what I do(play the french horn). I play at a very high level and have done so consistently for some 10 years now. I have played professionally for 10 years, but have only played the French Horn for a total of 16 years. I guess, I am so used to progressing rapidly to a very high level at something that I have a great passion for, I have lost some sight as to what it may take to become very good at this game. Maybe golf is harder than music??

 

[ej20]

Jeremy,

Thank you for your post. The sheer euphoria I have expressed in my older posts have been a combination of me having fun trying to learn and having a strong belief that I am in the right place(this forum). However, as time has worn on I have been very unhappy with my progress, believing that I already should be to a scratch level. Are these naive thoughts?, maybe. The fact is, I am used to being really good at something that requires practice,time,hard work, effective practice etc. You see, I am a very good musician. In music, I am considered to be in the top 1-2% of what I do(play the french horn). I play at a very high level and have done so consistently for some 10 years now. I have played professionally for 10 years, but have only played the French Horn for a total of 16 years. I guess, I am so used to progressing rapidly to a very high level at something that I have a great passion for, I have lost some sight as to what it may take to become very good at this game. Maybe golf is harder than music??

Very very few people are born with multiple world class talents.Yours appear to be music.

I suppose Michael Jordan should be pi$$ed off he's only a low single figure handicapper rather than competing with Tiger for major championships seeing that he was the best basketball player ever....and Jordan has been playing a lot longer than you and probably practices more than you as well.

In any case,I believe that you took up the game too late in life to develop a world class swing,no matter who your instructor is and how much time you put into practice.You can probably count on one hand the number of golfers that started playing golf in their 20's and went on to become professional players.

 

[Jared Willerson]

You'll get better, golf is hard and not sympathetic...at all.

I am the classic over doer...and it has hurt me, doesn't mean the info was wrong or not for me, sometimes individual perceptions of what is happening are a bit different.

Everybody goes through this. I was a decent flip hooker who could putt a bit before I discovered Brian and this site, solid 8 cap, but inconsistent.

Learned not to flip it and way overdid it to the point of not swinging at all just carrying a bowed left wrist and bent right wrist to impact lots of two way misses.

Brian tried to get me to do less of this, but I was so damn proud of my "impact hands" that I had a tough time letting go and doing what he wanted. Saw Brian again and again too much forward lean and not enough "swing"....still, proud of my flat ass left wrist at impact. Finally starting to understand that all that shaft lean and flat left wrist isn't the secret of golf.

Now I am having to learn to kind release and what it feels like is throwaway and swing my arms a bit. Something Brian wanted me to do 2 years ago, but I was stuck on a concept in my mind.

The information was good, I let myself and the pride of figuring out the left wrist impede my progress...not Brian's fault.

You will figure it out...but one thing I have learned...overdoing something is death to any golf swing and individual perceptions of what another person is trying to teach can get in the way of real progress. Tools like trackman are breaking down this barrier between the student/teacher relationship, because most people have the sense to realize that the numbers don't lie.

Kudos to Brian, for being forthcoming in his responses

 

[conkanen]

Can't help but think this could have been done privately with a follow up post saying how great Brian handled it. JMO.

 

[softconsult]

What Jeremy said. Exactly what I was thinking.

Yesterday, during the Pebble Beach broadcast, one of the commentators
said that Tony Romo, scratch golfer, had aspirations of qualifying for the U. S. Open. Faldo responded by saying that there is a wide gap between playing to scratch at your club and the reaching the skill level of U. S. Open players.

Additionally, the idea that a golfer with less than 2 years experience, no matter what his athletic skills, is going to be able to incorporate all these swing changes, and actually be able to implement them on the course with the result of significantly lowering their handicap is, to me, not very likely.

The concept that endless hours of practice beating balls will somehow generate lower scores is also suspect. Golf is all about learning to handle the variables like tilted lies, wind, distance control, mind control, course strategy, short game, green reading, putting, etc. etc. This takes years of effort and a lot of actual playing time.

Finally, I must react to the make it right offer. I really think the analogy of a contractors fixing their mistakes is not a good one when it comes to golf instruction. The customer has no role in the performance of a contractor. The customer, student, plays a big role in the outcome of golf lessons. How does an instructor know that the student is actually practicing what was taught? Student may think they are doing it as taught, but reality often is different. The most frustrating game on earth!

When I sell my consulting services it is essentially giving the customer advice based on my many years of experience. If they don't implement the advice correctly, choose to ignore critical pieces of the solution, or choose to not use the advice, then it's their problem not mine. I sure as hell am not going to refund their money.