An Unhappy Customer
- Thread starter vjsinger
- Start date
- Status
Just that if you know the problem then you can find the solution or have an idea what to do , as opposed to if you don't know what's wrong it's a lot harder to fix. (Speaking about VJ here.)
Since VJ didn't let you know till now the problems he's having and you haven't had a chance to look at his swing for awhile i feel it's a bit unfair for him to call you out on the forum and not discuss this in a pm with you.
Just my opinion. Could have been handled better. I think most people on the forum think all the instructors are honorable in their attempt at helping us and sometimes things go a little sideways, no big deal, nothing that can't be dealt with in an adult and professional manner.
No one has all the answers, not yet. Golf ain't that easy, a couple of lessons and some practice and then it's all cake and ice cream. If it was there would be a lot more (fat scratch golfers) out there.
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I'll take on bad-lesson taking first.
I'm a legal-writing professor, and one common thing I see in my students is ignoring what I recommend. One student I have, a C student, struggles with organization, yet she insists on not listening to my advice. I provide guidance, explain the reasons for my guidance, and she comes back and says, "I decided to do it this way; is that OK?" It's frustrating for me, but even worse, it hinders her development as a writer.
The golf equivalent is a 25-handicapper with a weak slice who refuses to twist away because it's uncomfortable and doesn't feel right. I follow this site to help my teaching as much as my golf, so I wonder what you instructors do about students who don't listen well or who aren't as teachable as others because they insist on doing their own thing? Or do you not even see this sort of thing?
Bad-lesson giving, on the other hand, can also occur because of poor listening skills. I saw one instructor and told her I was in it for the duration and wanted to take a long-term approach to improvement. I said I wanted a plan. I wanted to know my primary faults and what steps we were going to take to cure them. All she ever said was, "Oh, I have a plan for you." Then we'd go back to hitting balls. It took her five lessons to realize I was a stone cold flipper with an open face and an OTT move, even though I told her during the first lesson that my misses were slices and pulls, that i had poor distance, and that I couldn't even hit a driver because it went so far right--no matter how left I started it. This was two years ago, around the time I discovered this site and what flipping was. I videoed my own swing on a little digital elf and showed it to her during the fifth lesson (she had never taped my swing). She said, "Boy, you really throw that club early." She had no idea how to correct it, and it was back to showing me the "perfect" position at P3.
I decided to stop paying her and bought Flipper, NSA, and SoftDraw.
I'm a legal-writing professor, and one common thing I see in my students is ignoring what I recommend. One student I have, a C student, struggles with organization, yet she insists on not listening to my advice. I provide guidance, explain the reasons for my guidance, and she comes back and says, "I decided to do it this way; is that OK?" It's frustrating for me, but even worse, it hinders her development as a writer.
The golf equivalent is a 25-handicapper with a weak slice who refuses to twist away because it's uncomfortable and doesn't feel right. I follow this site to help my teaching as much as my golf, so I wonder what you instructors do about students who don't listen well or who aren't as teachable as others because they insist on doing their own thing? Or do you not even see this sort of thing?
Bad-lesson giving, on the other hand, can also occur because of poor listening skills. I saw one instructor and told her I was in it for the duration and wanted to take a long-term approach to improvement. I said I wanted a plan. I wanted to know my primary faults and what steps we were going to take to cure them. All she ever said was, "Oh, I have a plan for you." Then we'd go back to hitting balls. It took her five lessons to realize I was a stone cold flipper with an open face and an OTT move, even though I told her during the first lesson that my misses were slices and pulls, that i had poor distance, and that I couldn't even hit a driver because it went so far right--no matter how left I started it. This was two years ago, around the time I discovered this site and what flipping was. I videoed my own swing on a little digital elf and showed it to her during the fifth lesson (she had never taped my swing). She said, "Boy, you really throw that club early." She had no idea how to correct it, and it was back to showing me the "perfect" position at P3.
I decided to stop paying her and bought Flipper, NSA, and SoftDraw.
this is sometimes where golf instruction comes up short because of the "hourly" relationship we have with our students. Regardless of the teacher or student's ability, the short time we spend together is often not enough to discover the learning style, personality and physical capabilities of our students. I've always believed that a "stipend" relationship of sorts might be better for long-term, serious students. That is certainly how many tour teachers work. Very difficult to do for the rest of us. I have had students pay me a set figure for the year or season, and come as often as is needed, with an agreed on daily time frame (usually an hour).
Kevin I think to answer your question one has to break the answer in 2 parts. One is the instructor providing the correct information in a mode that they understand visual, kinetic etc to provide and have them execute at least a few times what they would liked improved which is achievable during the lesson duration.
The other part is does the student truly understand what is being taught so they are capable of creating the improvements once they leave the instructor and know enough about the basic fundaments such as posture, grip ,alignments,etc. which would make what they are trying to work at just impossible. I truly believe sometimes so much is made about dplane etc. that the boring essense of golf is forgotten by the student. I know from experience if I am working hard on fixing something once I get tired, my posture will go first and only with compensations can I hit the ball at all. Knowing that I stop practicing and try working on it when I am fresh. I never try fixing anything unless I personally know what is the problem. If I don't know I then go to only a quality instructor and direct them into what they believe the solution is and make sure I ask enough questions so at least I understand the solution and the drills etc. i would need to do this so then I can work independently. I don't have the luxery of bringing my instructors to me when I play like Phil M. does
In a nut shell its the mix of knowledge of teacher combined with good understanding of the student that makes it work. The more the lesson is just a one time affair rather than weekly the more the responsibility is to the student to make the relatiionship work.
Now Kelvin I don't know you personally but from your posts and your association with Brian who I had a great time with in a seminar and is well qualified to only choose talented instructors I don't see how this problem could be yours. If there is anything that may need to be fixed is that lessons given to people who are beginners make it understood that a one time only lesson is not advisable and even then if they are having problems after the lesson making the corrections have them notify you immediatelly so you can try to find out what what is getting in the way.(I know you did this after you found out)
Finally I hate to say this but sometimes people just can't learn golf no matter how good the instructor is.
Finally I find it admirable that Brian and you were willing to make things good. You guys work hard at what you do and the postings that Brian ,you and others do demonstrate your commitment to excellence.
Keep up the great work!!!!
Dave
trickyric67
New
I feel for you VJ,
I was taught to play by a wonderfull proffesional when I was a kid and he was even considered an uncle to me (my fathers best friend) I went on to play D3 golf and in my senior year I broke my ankle. After recovery I went to see my uncle Joe but he was riddled with cancer and soon died. I put down the clubs for awhile (he was that important to me as a friend and mentor)and when I finally decided to play again I could not do anything I had done my whole golfing life. this began a journey of seeing 1 top 100 teacher after another. I spent 10's of thousands of dollars and just kept getting worse. one of the teachers actually took a phone call during my lesson and I packed up and left. I have since spent years trying to learn the science and mechanics behind the golf swing and since meeting Brian, michael Jacobs and getting some videos from Ben Doyle I have finally started to play real golf again. Don't get me wrong I played anywhere from a 5 to a 12 but I never fealt like I was hitting it well. anyway to get back on topic my frustration got so bad at times that I wish I had a way to vent like this website gave VJ and a great person like Brian willing to really listen and hear the frustration without taking offense to the "words". good luck VJ and Brian I really hope it works out.
I was taught to play by a wonderfull proffesional when I was a kid and he was even considered an uncle to me (my fathers best friend) I went on to play D3 golf and in my senior year I broke my ankle. After recovery I went to see my uncle Joe but he was riddled with cancer and soon died. I put down the clubs for awhile (he was that important to me as a friend and mentor)and when I finally decided to play again I could not do anything I had done my whole golfing life. this began a journey of seeing 1 top 100 teacher after another. I spent 10's of thousands of dollars and just kept getting worse. one of the teachers actually took a phone call during my lesson and I packed up and left. I have since spent years trying to learn the science and mechanics behind the golf swing and since meeting Brian, michael Jacobs and getting some videos from Ben Doyle I have finally started to play real golf again. Don't get me wrong I played anywhere from a 5 to a 12 but I never fealt like I was hitting it well. anyway to get back on topic my frustration got so bad at times that I wish I had a way to vent like this website gave VJ and a great person like Brian willing to really listen and hear the frustration without taking offense to the "words". good luck VJ and Brian I really hope it works out.
softconsult
New
"I'll take on bad-lesson taking first.
I'm a legal-writing professor, and one common thing I see in my students is ignoring what I recommend. One student I have, a C student, struggles with organization, yet she insists on not listening to my advice. I provide guidance, explain the reasons for my guidance, and she comes back and says, "I decided to do it this way; is that OK?" It's frustrating for me, but even worse, it hinders her development as a writer. "
I know that you are using this to illustrate bad-lesson taking. You say that this is frustrating for you. When I read what you wrote, I had an instant reaction. I realize that you have to exist in a climate of careful academic political correctness relative to your students. It must be difficult.
These students are simply doing what I always called, "Trying you on." So when she says, "Is that OK?", and you continue to explain things, she has won her little game.
My answer would be, "Sure it's OK, but you may fail my class. It's your choice. I have nothing more to say about it." I would then be branded as mean, and too blunt.
I know you weren't asking for advice, but I gave you some anyway.
I'm a legal-writing professor, and one common thing I see in my students is ignoring what I recommend. One student I have, a C student, struggles with organization, yet she insists on not listening to my advice. I provide guidance, explain the reasons for my guidance, and she comes back and says, "I decided to do it this way; is that OK?" It's frustrating for me, but even worse, it hinders her development as a writer. "
I know that you are using this to illustrate bad-lesson taking. You say that this is frustrating for you. When I read what you wrote, I had an instant reaction. I realize that you have to exist in a climate of careful academic political correctness relative to your students. It must be difficult.
These students are simply doing what I always called, "Trying you on." So when she says, "Is that OK?", and you continue to explain things, she has won her little game.
My answer would be, "Sure it's OK, but you may fail my class. It's your choice. I have nothing more to say about it." I would then be branded as mean, and too blunt.
I know you weren't asking for advice, but I gave you some anyway.
Matt Bryda
New
Kevin Shields
I couldn't agree more with Kevin. It is a long journey and it is the hardest game to get real good at of anything I have ever tried to do. I have been in the golf business 16 years and after my first hour of reading Brian's posts I new that I finally found information about the golf swing that was on the mark, real and works. I often gave up playing for periods of time over the years because the stuff I was trying to do just didn't hold up day to day and season to season.
I finally feel like golf might be like riding a bike, once you get it you never really completely loose it. And when next season rolls around I can honestly say that I will only be a couple of rounds and a couple of practice sessions away from playing the best golf of my life and that is really exciting to me.
Thanks Brian, Kevin and Damon for keeping it REAL...AGAIN!
Michael Finney
New
wow
Matt 4-L
New
This old adage still holds true, “You cannot buy a game”. Whether you’re talking about new clubs or taking lessons to instantly make you a scratch player. If it only took good instruction and lots of hard work there would be lots of guys shooting par or better but the fact is it’s a hard game and just when you think you know something about your swing you blow up and shoot a 90. I found out a long time ago that if I was going to get where I want to be in golf I was going to have to learn about the golf swing inside out and I read all the books and quickly found out there is a ton of junk out there and I would try it and if it worked great if not I scrapped it and marked it down as something that doesn’t work for me. As for Brian and his lessons I can’t comment on because I have not been able to get one yet but he has definitely piqued my interest especially since he now has a trackman. I am very skeptical in nature and when anyone claims to be an expert in anything I have red flags go off in my head but what I do appreciate about Brian and this site is the debate and the search for knowledge that we all seem to be on the quest for. I have been on this site for several years now and have purchased all of Brian’s videos and I don’t know if I am a better ball striker but I do know for a fact that I am more knowledgeable about my swing. I am pretty optimistic about this coming year I have a feeling this is going to be my break out year of some really good golf. I don’t know of any other golf site that the instructors will answer just about any question you ask them, for free and even ask you to post a swing so they can take a look and for that I am very appreciative.
I think your anger is directed at the wrong individuals and that you should be more upset with yourself, in the end it is going to be you who makes yourself a better player, you’re simply buying instruction and it is your responsibility to apply it correctly, I don’t care how good the instructor is, you still have to be the one hitting the ball. Just because you’re a professional horn player doesn’t give you an innate ability to play golf, there are lots of us out here who are quite good athletes and have really excelled in other sports that get humbled by golf everyday, welcome to the ranks.
I think your anger is directed at the wrong individuals and that you should be more upset with yourself, in the end it is going to be you who makes yourself a better player, you’re simply buying instruction and it is your responsibility to apply it correctly, I don’t care how good the instructor is, you still have to be the one hitting the ball. Just because you’re a professional horn player doesn’t give you an innate ability to play golf, there are lots of us out here who are quite good athletes and have really excelled in other sports that get humbled by golf everyday, welcome to the ranks.
lessons
A very interesting thread
Most teachers in general are trying to make a living and of course do not want to fill their forum space with negativity
there are always testimonials about how good the method is and how someones game has been transformed
This website is of course no different in that respect and cannot be blamed for that
It is very difficult to prove success rates as there are so many variables
in addition most people do not want to cause trouble and may feel it is their own fault
As someone who has spent a significant amount of money and time on lessons over the last 10 years, I have to accept that no one can improve my game
A very interesting thread
Most teachers in general are trying to make a living and of course do not want to fill their forum space with negativity
there are always testimonials about how good the method is and how someones game has been transformed
This website is of course no different in that respect and cannot be blamed for that
It is very difficult to prove success rates as there are so many variables
in addition most people do not want to cause trouble and may feel it is their own fault
As someone who has spent a significant amount of money and time on lessons over the last 10 years, I have to accept that no one can improve my game
ggsjpc
New
Very sad to see this.
softconsult
New
I'm truly not picking on LynxGolf. What he said , in a way, illustrates another aspect of this great game. He's not getting better, but that's what handicaps are for.
If we just think back to high school, it is clear that there was the expected curve of athletic skill from zippo to varsity lettermen. So why do we expect that to change as people take up golf? Also, it could be true that the nerds, who weren't athetic, end up making the most money, and can better afford to play golf and take lessons.
I've known a lot of guys that couldn't play a lick, but loved to play. They didn't care that they were shooting over 100.
My favorite was Rudy. He lived up the street from me in Ohio. He was also the buyer for our biggest customers. I was the General Manager of our plant. Every year Rudy expected to be invited to play in what we called BIG day. Business, Industry, Golf Day. This was one of those Monday events with a PGA Pro playing through the field. Rudy was simply godawful bad, but he loved golf. Every year I gave him a golf club with his initials stamped into the head. He perfectly illustrated to me that it is not necessary to be serious golf in order to enjoy the game.
Now personally, when I get to where I really can't play fairly well, I hope that I will end the misery and stop playing. However, this attitude could change.
I play in a Seniors Golf League twice a week. I guarantee that some of the really old guys in the second flight would not be alive if it weren't for the exercise that golf provides.
If we just think back to high school, it is clear that there was the expected curve of athletic skill from zippo to varsity lettermen. So why do we expect that to change as people take up golf? Also, it could be true that the nerds, who weren't athetic, end up making the most money, and can better afford to play golf and take lessons.
I've known a lot of guys that couldn't play a lick, but loved to play. They didn't care that they were shooting over 100.
My favorite was Rudy. He lived up the street from me in Ohio. He was also the buyer for our biggest customers. I was the General Manager of our plant. Every year Rudy expected to be invited to play in what we called BIG day. Business, Industry, Golf Day. This was one of those Monday events with a PGA Pro playing through the field. Rudy was simply godawful bad, but he loved golf. Every year I gave him a golf club with his initials stamped into the head. He perfectly illustrated to me that it is not necessary to be serious golf in order to enjoy the game.
Now personally, when I get to where I really can't play fairly well, I hope that I will end the misery and stop playing. However, this attitude could change.
I play in a Seniors Golf League twice a week. I guarantee that some of the really old guys in the second flight would not be alive if it weren't for the exercise that golf provides.
vjsinger
New
It has been said that this thread was done when too much emotion was involved, I will agree with this.
When I started this thread I honestly expected it to be yanked down immediately and then followed by a very prompt phone call from Brian asking me what the heck my problem was and what was wrong with my game. I expected it because it ALWAYS happens like that. This time it didn't and I honestly was not prepared for it. I said that I thought this would be good for everyone to learn something from, B.S. I thought the damn thing would get removed and I could discuss this stuff in private. When I saw that it wasn't removed I certainly panicked. I am angry at myself for not seeing this and for not handling my problem with Brian and Kevin privately.
Brian and Kevin have been nothing but good to me and for me to let this happen is irresponsible, unprofessional and just flat out mean. I should not have let my anger and disappointment get the best of me. A demonstration of the kindheartedness I received was when Kevin loaned me a TOUR STRIKER, free of charge, for many months that I still have not returned. While what I have said is truthfully how I feel as it pertains to our lessons, that does not excuse my behavior for acting out this way. I apologize once again to Brian and Kevin and all who were offended or upset by this thread.
When I started this thread I honestly expected it to be yanked down immediately and then followed by a very prompt phone call from Brian asking me what the heck my problem was and what was wrong with my game. I expected it because it ALWAYS happens like that. This time it didn't and I honestly was not prepared for it. I said that I thought this would be good for everyone to learn something from, B.S. I thought the damn thing would get removed and I could discuss this stuff in private. When I saw that it wasn't removed I certainly panicked. I am angry at myself for not seeing this and for not handling my problem with Brian and Kevin privately.
Brian and Kevin have been nothing but good to me and for me to let this happen is irresponsible, unprofessional and just flat out mean. I should not have let my anger and disappointment get the best of me. A demonstration of the kindheartedness I received was when Kevin loaned me a TOUR STRIKER, free of charge, for many months that I still have not returned. While what I have said is truthfully how I feel as it pertains to our lessons, that does not excuse my behavior for acting out this way. I apologize once again to Brian and Kevin and all who were offended or upset by this thread.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Some answers.
This happens ALL the time.
For example, some students don't want to make a certain move. Period.
One of the best lessons I ever gave was to a young guy who hit weak under plane hooks.
I fixed him good, he hit it WAY better, straighter, longer, and higher.
Good job, huh?
Not really, he and people he listened to were no fans of slightly upright backswings, and that was a part of the fix.
Never saw him again.
The JOB of the teacher is to try to figure these things out while the adjustments are taking place.
The problem in this and many other examples is simple:
The golfer/student had no problem with the adjustment, his acquaintances did.
And there WILL ALWAYS BE someone who does.
But lots of experience can spot more "I-don't-know-about-this-prescription" doubt than lack of experience can.
At the end of the day, it is a part of teaching.
The more MYSTIQUE the teacher has, the more RESPECT the teacher has, the more the "peanut gallery" buys into a teacher, the more CONVINCING the teacher is, the less doubt in the mind of the student.
You'd think it would be all about getting them to hit it better during the lesson, so they KNOW they can make it work, but there is a lot more to it for some of them then that.
Do you hit it better now?
I agree that seeing a student often and regular is ALWAYS the easiest route for the teacher and the student.
It just isn't always possible.
But, lots of folks just need to know what they need to do, and they improve.
I wish I had a count of how many students I see on the road that tell me they used to be slicers, then bought Never Slice Again, and now they are single digits looking to improve some more.
And I've never even laid an eye on them.
Pretty cool.
I understand where you are coming from, but I still think Mr. Miyagi was right.
"No such thing as bad student, only bad teacher."
I'd love to take a shot at it.
This happens ALL the time.
For example, some students don't want to make a certain move. Period.
One of the best lessons I ever gave was to a young guy who hit weak under plane hooks.
I fixed him good, he hit it WAY better, straighter, longer, and higher.
Good job, huh?
Not really, he and people he listened to were no fans of slightly upright backswings, and that was a part of the fix.
Never saw him again.
The JOB of the teacher is to try to figure these things out while the adjustments are taking place.
The problem in this and many other examples is simple:
The golfer/student had no problem with the adjustment, his acquaintances did.
And there WILL ALWAYS BE someone who does.
But lots of experience can spot more "I-don't-know-about-this-prescription" doubt than lack of experience can.
At the end of the day, it is a part of teaching.
The more MYSTIQUE the teacher has, the more RESPECT the teacher has, the more the "peanut gallery" buys into a teacher, the more CONVINCING the teacher is, the less doubt in the mind of the student.
You'd think it would be all about getting them to hit it better during the lesson, so they KNOW they can make it work, but there is a lot more to it for some of them then that.
I saw one instructor and told her I was in it for the duration and wanted to take a long-term approach to improvement. I said I wanted a plan. I wanted to know my primary faults and what steps we were going to take to cure them....I videoed my own swing...and showed it to her during the fifth lesson (she had never taped my swing).
She said, "Boy, you really throw that club early."
She had no idea how to correct it, and it was back to showing me the "perfect" position at P3.
I decided to stop paying her and bought Flipper, NSA, and SoftDraw.
Do you hit it better now?
I agree that seeing a student often and regular is ALWAYS the easiest route for the teacher and the student.
It just isn't always possible.
But, lots of folks just need to know what they need to do, and they improve.
I wish I had a count of how many students I see on the road that tell me they used to be slicers, then bought Never Slice Again, and now they are single digits looking to improve some more.
And I've never even laid an eye on them.
Pretty cool.
I understand where you are coming from, but I still think Mr. Miyagi was right.
"No such thing as bad student, only bad teacher."
I'd love to take a shot at it.
"I complained because I had no shoes; until I met a man that had no feet." --Attributed to alot of different people.
VJ,
I don't think there is a person who has played this game that hasn't been frustrated to the point of losing perspective. Including myself. It's a wonderful game that can teach us, bemuse us, and ultimately amuse us.
Hats off to you, Brian and Kevin for a great and courageous thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VJ,
I don't think there is a person who has played this game that hasn't been frustrated to the point of losing perspective. Including myself. It's a wonderful game that can teach us, bemuse us, and ultimately amuse us.
Hats off to you, Brian and Kevin for a great and courageous thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Matt 4-L
New
+1
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Wrapping Things Up.
I have always been very critical of teachers who do not take the blame for there student's progress or lack thereof.
I am not going to chance that anytime soon.
Your lack of satisfaction is my and Kevin's RESPONSIBILITY. Fault is a little harsh.
I was not there for you sessions with Kevin, but in our two 2-hour lessons, I had you hitting it MARKEDLY BETTER than when you arrived.
I think my critics ought to know this.
MARKEDLY BETTER.
Now, when a student goes home and works on his game after a session where they hit it MARKEDLY BETTER, and something goes wrong there are reasons.
1. The Correct SCIENTIFICALLY SOUND Pattern & Adjustments, were taught to the student, and the student took a couple of wrong turns during practice and needs to be put back where they were when they left.
80% of time, this is the case.
2. The Incorrect SCIENTIFICALLY SOUND Pattern & Adjustments for the student, and for a variety of reasons the student can't reproduce them for any length of time or on the course or under pressure, the teacher need to take a different approach for THIS student.
10% of the time, this is the case.
3. SCIENTIFICALLY UN-SOUND Pattern & Adjustments were taught, and they are just not going to work.
5% of the time, this is the case.
4. Remember that this list is for students that hit the ball MARKEDLY BETTER during the lesson, like VJ did.
The remaining 5% is SCIENTIFICALLY UN-SOUND Pattern & Adjustments were taught, but the student did something else and THAT worked.
That's why we have TrackMan and Casio, to figure out WHAT the student is doing PRECISELY, when they are hotting it MARKEDLY BETTER.
6° 3D will help as well.
VJ, to be honest, I think this thread really helped some folks.
No apologies needed.
This thread is closed, but will remain up.
I have always been very critical of teachers who do not take the blame for there student's progress or lack thereof.
I am not going to chance that anytime soon.
Your lack of satisfaction is my and Kevin's RESPONSIBILITY. Fault is a little harsh.
I was not there for you sessions with Kevin, but in our two 2-hour lessons, I had you hitting it MARKEDLY BETTER than when you arrived.
I think my critics ought to know this.
MARKEDLY BETTER.
Now, when a student goes home and works on his game after a session where they hit it MARKEDLY BETTER, and something goes wrong there are reasons.
1. The Correct SCIENTIFICALLY SOUND Pattern & Adjustments, were taught to the student, and the student took a couple of wrong turns during practice and needs to be put back where they were when they left.
80% of time, this is the case.
2. The Incorrect SCIENTIFICALLY SOUND Pattern & Adjustments for the student, and for a variety of reasons the student can't reproduce them for any length of time or on the course or under pressure, the teacher need to take a different approach for THIS student.
10% of the time, this is the case.
3. SCIENTIFICALLY UN-SOUND Pattern & Adjustments were taught, and they are just not going to work.
5% of the time, this is the case.
4. Remember that this list is for students that hit the ball MARKEDLY BETTER during the lesson, like VJ did.
The remaining 5% is SCIENTIFICALLY UN-SOUND Pattern & Adjustments were taught, but the student did something else and THAT worked.
That's why we have TrackMan and Casio, to figure out WHAT the student is doing PRECISELY, when they are hotting it MARKEDLY BETTER.
6° 3D will help as well.
VJ, to be honest, I think this thread really helped some folks.
No apologies needed.
This thread is closed, but will remain up.
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