An Unhappy Customer

[greenfree]

Quote VJ: When I said, "since we're not being delicate or nice" I mean, I've been pissed off about me not getting better for a while now and I didn't say anything because I wanted to find the appropriate moment to bring it up so everyone that regulars the site may learn. Bringing it up in this way allows everyone to see that this does occur and how it may be handled.



Talk about a setup. Whole thing smells fishy.

 

[mgranato]

I'd like to thank VJ, Brian, and Kevin for allowing the rest of us to listen in on a "private" matter and see a side of the business that is never made public.

VJ, I can empathize with your peaks and valleys. From everything I've read about you, you're relatively new to the game but you bring a ton of natural athletic ability to the table. Our paths are very similar. I was a pretty decent athlete (played major college basketball), and figured after I graduated, I would take up golf - how hard could it be, right?

Without a lesson, it took me 4 years to get to scratch. Terrible fundamentals in the swing, but a good putter and could hit it long. Problem was, I could only play well on my home course - I had the worst traveling game in history. Wanting to feel the juice of tournaments, I went to get my first lesson from our head pro (who also teaches a PGA Tour winner). Lessons went great and was able to get in any of the positions he wanted me in - sounds exactly like what happened in your lessons. Everything felt great, got better, but then a week or two later I couldn't hit it worth a darn. This cycle repeated itself a few times.

Eventually I managed to figure out what was happening. It was very easy for me to adopt/mimic the new positions during the lesson, but because of that, I wasn't learning the new feels good enough to reproduce them when I wasn't being monitored. It was like imitating a really good swing rather than learning a really good swing. A few days later, all those temporary feels would be gone or changed to the point where I was actually ingraining something different than what we'd worked on during the lesson - but it didn't feel like it.

I eventually figured out how to get off the roller coaster. Firstly, I had to come to grips with the fact that my "free ride" was over. No more ignorantly improving my game, if there was going to be any improvement it wasn't going to be without growing pains. Secondly, I learned for something to last, I needed to make tiny changes over longer periods of time. This was/is by far the most difficult to do.

Shaving the next couple strokes was much more difficult than the 20 before them. I have NOTHING figured out, but I do think I've learned how to learn - for my swing. I still find the valleys, still try to learn too much at once, still get impatient, still get pissed - only difference now is, I spend less time at each of those places (sometimes ). I think getting from where you are now to where you want to go is as much about mental toughness as it is mechanics, and I can tell you have enough of that to get it done. When you learn how you learn, I bet things will start clicking again.

This is all just a long winded note of encouragement. You are in great hands instruction wise, but I think the ultimate catalyst is you. It's only going to get harder as you get better, you'll get pissed, and you'll invent new things to blame, but you seem to have all the tools to do it - if you didn't it probably wouldn't bug you so much.

 

[Bigwill]

Jeremy,

Thank you for your post. The sheer euphoria I have expressed in my older posts have been a combination of me having fun trying to learn and having a strong belief that I am in the right place(this forum). However, as time has worn on I have been very unhappy with my progress, believing that I already should be to a scratch level. Are these naive thoughts?, maybe. The fact is, I am used to being really good at something that requires practice,time,hard work, effective practice etc. You see, I am a very good musician. In music, I am considered to be in the top 1-2% of what I do(play the french horn). I play at a very high level and have done so consistently for some 10 years now. I have played professionally for 10 years, but have only played the French Horn for a total of 16 years. I guess, I am so used to progressing rapidly to a very high level at something that I have a great passion for, I have lost some sight as to what it may take to become very good at this game. Maybe golf is harder than music??

VJ, this post is right on the money. You are a lot better than probably 90 percent of the people who have played for as long as you have. I know how it feels to know you should be (and can be) much better than you are; I completely understand your frustration. But you'll have to be more patient, or this game will drive you away.

For the record, as somene who sings and has played a little music, golf is sooo much harder!

 

[Chip Putterman]

VJ, I don't know you personally, so don't take what I am about to say personally. Golf is a GAME. It is meant to be for recreation and enjoyment. Having said that, getting better at it will make it much more fun. But no matter how many lessons you get, you will NEVER be a Tour Pro. All Brian and Kevin can do is give you the proper feedback and information.
I read a Donald Trump book some time ago. I got a lot of information, put some of it to use and felt a lot smarter for having read it. I didn't get mad because I didn't become a billionaire. Golf is the same way. Brian and Kevin can only give you so much. The rest truly is up to you. And if you have a job and a family, your time is limited. So I'll leave you with this: be the best YOU can be, enjoy the view, enioy the company of your friends, and mostly, have fun.

 

[niblick1]

In my entire golfing life, I've known exactly one person who went from taking up golf as an adult to becoming a near scratch golfer in 2-3 years (and there's no chance he'd ever think he could play pro golf even if he played 14 hours a day the rest of his life). He is a guy who holds every basketball, baseball and football record at his high school, went on to be a record-holding SEC quarterback, and who was never quite good enough to get a starting job in the NFL. There's no chance in this world that he would have ever imagined that had he decided to take up the French Horn that he would have expected to be playing in a major symphony orchestra 6 years later.

I think golf's a lot harder than you think. Look at how many pro athletes spend their retirements taking lessons all the time and playing golf four-five days a week and are never going to be scratch golfers.

But you should expect to improve over time and if you don't over some reasonable period of time then you should try something/someone new as a coach, as Brian would be the first to say.

Kudos to Brian for leaving this post up and for the response.

 

[vjsinger]

I should post my current goals:
1) Have fun
2) Learn as much as I can about MY golf swing. When it goes well,Why. and when it goes to shit,why?
3) Be more consistent in my ballstriking and later becoming a SCRATCH golfer at my club.

Not ever a TOUR pro, not even the club champ(yet). I just want to get better and see an incremental rise in progress over a period of time and know WHY it's happening. This is not unreasonable or outlandish. Furthermore, this is not a conspiracy theory type deal where I'm trying to set anyone up. I have admitted this MAY not be the best way to go about this, but have decided to take it this route so all of us may learn. This IS NOT PERSONAL. I did it this way because Brian and Kevin are big boys and they can handle it and have done so graciously. As I said, this is not personal, I think the world of Brian as a person, even more so now and hope everyone sees how well he handled this. This was not a set-up, or collaboration. I haven't spoken to Brian since September and he had no idea this was coming, again kudos to him for being so gracious. Thank you for the participation and encouragement.

 

[ZAP]

Quote VJ: When I said, "since we're not being delicate or nice" I mean, I've been pissed off about me not getting better for a while now and I didn't say anything because I wanted to find the appropriate moment to bring it up so everyone that regulars the site may learn. Bringing it up in this way allows everyone to see that this does occur and how it may be handled.



Talk about a setup. Whole thing smells fishy.

Huh?

 

[niblick1]

I just want to get better and see an incremental rise in progress over a period of time and know WHY it's happening. This is not unreasonable or outlandish.

Those are very reasonable goals.

One thing I learned this year after attending the Manzella Academy group event in MD was that I needed to improve as a student. What I mean is realized later as a very big takeaway is I learned much much more when I made Brian and Kevin give me a much more detailed verbal description of what they were seeing and trying to change and why. I have been very passive in not asking for this detail, and I think because many students don't want this and may actually be hurt by this that they generally avoid overloading people with detail. But you may also figure out things you generally need that make you different than a typical student.

I just think the path of improvement even for very dedicated golf nuts is more circuitous than you may think it is.

 

[vjsinger]

What I mean is realized later as a very big takeaway is I learned much much more when I made Brian and Kevin give me a much more detailed verbal description of what they were seeing and trying to change and why. I have been very passive in not asking for this detail, and I think because many students don't want this and may actually be hurt by this that they generally avoid overloading people with detail. But you may also figure out things you generally need that make you different than a typical student.

.

I am probably guilty here. I should ask for more info., the why, the how, the what. I will admit that I haven't made the most of the time that I spent with Brian and Kevin.

 

[greenfree]

I should post my current goals:
1) Have fun
2) Learn as much as I can about MY golf swing. When it goes well,Why. and when it goes to shit,why?
3) Be more consistent in my ballstriking and later becoming a SCRATCH golfer at my club.

Not ever a TOUR pro, not even the club champ(yet). I just want to get better and see an incremental rise in progress over a period of time and know WHY it's happening. This is not unreasonable or outlandish. Furthermore, this is not a conspiracy theory type deal where I'm trying to set anyone up. I have admitted this MAY not be the best way to go about this, but have decided to take it this route so all of us may learn. This IS NOT PERSONAL. I did it this way because Brian and Kevin are big boys and they can handle it and have done so graciously. As I said, this is not personal, I think the world of Brian as a person, even more so now and hope everyone sees how well he handled this. This was not a set-up, or collaboration. I haven't spoken to Brian since September and he had no idea this was coming, again kudos to him for being so gracious. Thank you for the participation and encouragement.

What's the lesson your teaching us?

That golf's a struggle, that sometimes you do get worse, or progress is less than one would want , regardless who the teacher or student are. That's life , suck it up and quit the crying. Poor me. There's bigger problems out there than that. Geez it's only golf for cripes sake.

That Brian stands behind his teaching and we now know that Kevin gives a money back gaurantee Think i knew that already, except for the refund from Kevin part.

 

[gmbtempe]

vjsinger,

I am sorry to hear your story, not because it has anything to do with BM or his associates but because I can feel your pain. There is nothing worse than spending a lot of money on something, make a commitment to it, and then not seeing the results you were looking for.

I can sympathize as I took some lessons last summer and got zippo out of it, fortunately it did not take me long to realize it was not going to work and made a change.

I hope you find the right path in the journey, best of luck.

 

[LiftOff]

To VJ

VJ, I'd like to add to the comments of others above.

Speaking from the perspective of someone who has been playing for over 55 years, single digit, and following Brian and this site for quite some time.

First, I sincerely wish you the best, but golf is a very funny and demanding sport. Learning it requires attention to detail at the highest level. For someone to approach the game as late in life as you, as compared to a six or seven year old, you might reconsider how realistic your expectations are.

Being successful doing something else does not translate into being good at this game. Or, even potentially being good at this game. Notice I didn't say 'great'. I said 'good'. Great is another level. Golf is tough.

When reading your post on this problem, and parenthetically I have enjoyed your input to this site, you seem to come across as wanting too much too fast. Besides the swing techniques, a large part of golf is in the mind. Maybe because you want improvement soooo bad you are getting in your own way. Consider slowing down and give yourself some room to enjoy the game and allow yourself to improve instead of demanding the improvement.

Have to agree with Brians post about the gardener doing the weeding. Allowing the slightest of problems to creep into your swing will lengthen and steepen the learning process. To be really good you need the pro to watch you playing and correct your game on the course, where the tension is. After all, who is saying what you do on the range is what is happening out there in the trenches?

So, if I could sum up, slow those expectations down some. Improvement takes time. And, as you get better, it'll take even longer. That's just the nature of the beast.

Best of luck to you.
Cliff

 

[Kevin Shields]

Ive had all day to think about this. Basically ruined my day. I feel so bad about it. However, the difference around here is there is always ample opportunity to ask questions or make a call for a follow up. Had I known VJ's opinions earlier, I might have travelled to Dayton myself to get it right. I know some teachers who say "all you can do is give them the information" but i dont like that. I think Brian and I get along so well because we're of the same opinion that a bad lesson will cost us both a night of sleep.

Am I gonna sit here and lie and say VJ's lesson was the greatest ever? It wasnt. If he was a local guy and had realistic expectations and the chance of running into him at the club or range was there, i think it wouldve been fine. A relationship was needed there. He reminds me of myself in that I got good very fast at golf but hit a ballstriking plateau that i thought no teacher could dig me out of. I think at seventeen i needed to go back to the beginning and do Building Blocks. Alot of undoing. At the time i thought he needed what i told him and it didnt work for whatever reason. A years worth of experience later has me believing i might haave tweaked my suggestions a little.

I, like Brian, would offer a custumer like this the same thing. A total refund or the chance to right the ship. thats really all I can do.

I do agree with one of the posters that this is a great thread to see the other side of the business. When golfers struggle, on their own or in a lesson, sometimes its not a pretty site.

 

[vjsinger]

I am sorry for being a jerk about this and I know some won't completely understand why I did this, but it is what it is.

Kevin,

I will not accept your offer of a do over or refund, sorry. I believe that you tried your hardest to help, but for whatever reason it didn't. I am off for the next couple of days and would be willing to make a drive to Pittsburgh to talk and have a lesson. PM me if you are up to it and have some time. I apologize that this ruined your day.

 

[ggsjpc]

Makes us all better........

It's threads like this that make us all better. Rarely do we get to rite the ship.

 

[pm4610]

Awesome post/thread, one of the best ever in my opinion. I'm not in the same place as VJ is. I've never really gotten better as far as scoring goes (I still struggle to break100) - definitely tons more educated about the golf swing. I believe I haven't gotten better because I'm not as athletic, I practice - just not nearly enough, flexibility is awful, a bad back that I think about in the back of mind, and finally - I lack golf DNA. These are my excuses and they work for me.

 

[spktho]

I am sorry for being a jerk about this and I know some won't completely understand why I did this, but it is what it is.

I'm sure you know there are a few other ways that this could have been taken care of and I appreciate that this complaint thread is still up on Brian's own site. Sometimes emotion gets the best of us especially when it involves a passion.

Even with my limited first hand knowledge of the instructors on this site, I would be surprised if Brian or Kevin didn't make the offers they did, just because of reading and watching what goes on here. They are here to get out correct information, help golfers and help instructors. That is what I also see going on here in all of their posts. You can bet that as long as both, especially Brian, have been teaching, they have experienced unhappy customers before.

As with most athletic endeavors, golf is not just a physical challenge. Yogi Berra's quote about baseball can apply here too: "90% of the game is mental. The other 50% is physical".

 

[greenfree]

Vj's favourite, a Yogi Berra quote, right VJ, huh,huh?

 

[greenfree]

Quote VJ: I think hands controlled pivot in the BS and pivot controlled hands in the DS. At least that's what I feel in the BS in order to not OVER pivot and get my hands higher. In the downswing I pivot left the way Brian describes the DS pivot in Soft Draw. I feel an increased stretch in the left side with early axis tilt, then I just throw about as hard as I can from about halfway down in the downswing.

Your problem lies in the above, as does the fix.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Greenfree, what do you mean "as was the fix"? just curious.