Back to target

[bluebird]

Thanks Matt, I follow the arm straitness but am not sure what the energize part is referring too. Speed?

 

[dschultz6072]

I've posted this before but it seems good in the context of this discussion:

At 1:15 he looks like a midget.

 

[Matt Bryda]

Thanks Matt, I follow the arm straitness but am not sure what the energize part is referring too. Speed?

Mostly tension and push back on the arms/club system.

 

[JEREMY5577]

Thanks Kevin. It is always helpful to know some of the why's. Can we expand this discussion of the shoulder rotation to include the hip rotation? In paricular, does the "Ideas style release" work best with the maximum "x factor" coil between the hips and shoulders, or is it necessary to limit the hips to some degree?


John

I got very wrapped up in x-factor for alot of years, so much so that I could take a full back swing with out moving my hips at all pretty much. Well like Kevin said it's subject pending, but if you don't rotate you hips enough on the backswing they will be too far out in front on your downswing pivot and your arms will never catch up making the new release impossible (Something I've been dealing with lately). I am working on more backswing pivot (which on video you can barely tell the difference, but it changes everything)

 

[bluebird]

Ok so throw my three examples out and replace with the following? Offer little resistance between the hip and shoulder girdles, then keep the hips rotated away from the target untill they are pulled by the arms/shoulder mass? Thanks everyone Is Hunter's detail perfect for this swing/ release ?


John

 

[dschultz6072]

Ok so throw my three examples out and replace with the following? Offer little resistance between the hip and shoulder girdles, then keep the hips rotated away from the target untill they are pulled by the arms/shoulder mass? Thanks everyone Is Hunter's detail perfect for this swing/ release ?


John

For me I keep my back to the target and just fire my arms and line it up without feeling like I'm unwinding my top half. As soon as my left shoulder wants to go, I'm cooked. And it really likes to go. Very tough to get rid of the tug if it's there. They end up going, but they end up going in the fashion they are supporting my arm swing, rather than trying to guide it. I dump about 10 mph easy if they go too early. My hips...I don't know. For me they kinda take care of themselves. I just try to stay stable with my lower body and let them react.

 

[pokerlife]

For me I keep my back to the target and just fire my arms and line it up without feeling like I'm unwinding my top half. As soon as my left shoulder wants to go, I'm cooked. And it really likes to go. Very tough to get rid of the tug if it's there. They end up going, but they end up going in the fashion they are supporting my arm swing, rather than trying to guide it. I dump about 10 mph easy if they go too early. My hips...I don't know. For me they kinda take care of themselves. I just try to stay stable with my lower body and let them react.

That's exactly what i have been feeling! Almost as if you jumped in my brain and had a chat with him lol
It's a really easy way to play golf and hit it solid . I just want more distance , I hit it 250 when i catch it solid but im 5'8 140 pounds so i may have to live with it

 

[dschultz6072]

Your feel may vary, but for me I feel like the power is entirely applied from the right hand.

 

[JEREMY5577]

Your feel may vary, but for me I feel like the power is entirely applied from the right hand.

I did wholeheartedly agree with this statement until recently. As I began working on "tumble torque" I started to feel the left hand more actively appling torque then before still predominantly right side though. Again just me I was swinging all right side so any left side involvement feels different. But like you said the second I interject any conscious turning of the shoulders I'm cooked.

 

[Robbohank]

Wondering if the "back to the target" is related to Jorgensen's thoughts about the negative acceleration of the left shoulder into impact (i.e it's slowing down relative to the amount of initial transition acceleration). IMO if you've always had the intention of the shoulders continuously accelerating from transition to finish there can be a tendency for the arms to never have a chance to get synched up. And for me that means wipe-city.

I've used the "back-to-the-target" thought with some good results but I'm now gravitating towards a feeling of the shoulders "slowing down" into impact so my arms can "swing". It's as if I'm braking the shoulders so I feel like the hit is happening when the shoulders are "closed". Probably achieving the same thing as back to the target but this feels more dynamic.

Could just be a feel that works for me but I'm convinced a lot of my handle-dragging relates to shoulders that are spinning much too fast. I started a thread a while back about tee marks on the bottom of the driver. When I do this the tee marks are moving much more straight from face to back and the compression difference is significant!

 

[mgranato]

Thanks for starting this thread, Poker. I might owe you one of those burgers.

I hit balls today after a fresh re-watching of the release video and with this topic in mind. Found something that really clicked.

I've had trouble keeping the back to the target (B2T) without tugging while trying to create "the business". I could do the B2T without the business, or the business without the B2T, but rarely the two together. Just couldn't get the proper blend or sequence on my own. Many swings later... I stumbled across something that helped keep the B2T. I found it hard to tug if I compressed into the ground at the beginning of the downswing. Kinda like getting ready for a vertical jump. The beauty for me was that this got me in the perfect position to bury the club in the ground a foot 1/2 behind the ball. What a powerful position to be in. It took all the "trying" out of it and made it very reactionary... and fast! Roughly 4-5 more mph with both the clubs I was using (6 iron and 3 wood). The look on video was quite different, and the LM numbers were very encouraging (tighter path and swallower AA).

Maybe I'm the only person here who hasn't already been doing this, as I'm sure this isn't new to many of you guys. But for someone who always got picked last on the IQ team, these small victories are quite large. Need to see how it performs on the card now.

I bet this guy thought he solved his problems too...

 

[SteveT]

Now everybody is twisting and turning uncontrollably .... and questioning their feeel between their shoulders and hips... good luck.

So it seems there may be two camps in the optimization of the downswing kinematic sequencing of the shoulders.

1. Intentionally delay shoulder rotation until your arms have a chance to do their 'business' from the top of the swing, and,

2. Let everything flow naturally and mess around with your arms when they are in front of you well into the downswing.

Do you see where this all leads... without an objective, legitimate scientific analysis of body rotation...

 

[Robbohank]

Careful ST.... you have to be able to put some thought into the feels that are described by players that can break 80.

I don't remember if you can relate or not.

 

[dschultz6072]

Now everybody is twisting and turning uncontrollably .... and questioning their feeel between their shoulders and hips... good luck.

So it seems there may be two camps in the optimization of the downswing kinematic sequencing of the shoulders.

1. Intentionally delay shoulder rotation until your arms have a chance to do their 'business' from the top of the swing, and,

2. Let everything flow naturally and mess around with your arms when they are in front of you well into the downswing.

Do you see where this all leads... without an objective, legitimate scientific analysis of body rotation...

We're all going to be different because we're not only built differently, but some stuff we've learned or thought to be true didn't work out so hot for us.

One thing we can all agree on...if the arms and hands aren't given time to get through soon enough, as Hunter said, the club is way behind and that clubface is wide open. The arms and hands swing the club. The shoulders do not. I am not talking about intentionally delaying anything and I don't think anyone else here is either. It's more the idea of not trying to DO anything with my shoulders because I once thought I needed to drag my "loaded left arm across my chest" through impact and somehow magically my arms would propel off. It doesn't work that way, and it's a habit that takes a little time to break.

 

[mgranato]

Now everybody is twisting and turning uncontrollably .... and questioning their feeel between their shoulders and hips... good luck.

So it seems there may be two camps in the optimization of the downswing kinematic sequencing of the shoulders.

1. Intentionally delay shoulder rotation until your arms have a chance to do their 'business' from the top of the swing, and,

2. Let everything flow naturally and mess around with your arms when they are in front of you well into the downswing.

Do you see where this all leads... without an objective, legitimate scientific analysis of body rotation...

Okay. Let's say that that study almighty gets released tomorrow... now what do you do?

How many steps do you reckon are between information and writing a lower score down?

All that remedial stuff in between is playing golf.

 

[SteveT]

Careful ST.... you have to be able to put some thought into the feels that are described by players that can break 80.

I don't remember if you can relate or not.

I will never break 80... but neither will I go over ~95 on courses that are not my home course. So many golfers who claim a sub-80 game on their home course, they have trouble breaking 100 on a strange, tough course... something changes.

And "feels" are nice to talk about and share with fellow golfers, but they are unreliable and spurious too.

 

[SteveT]

Okay. Let's say that study almighty gets released tomorrow... now what do you do?

How many steps do you reckon are between information and writing a lower score down?

All that remedial stuff in between is playing golf.

What do you do?... well, you could go see Brian and he may do the "business" on you to take advantage of the latest scientific info.... or you could try to puzzle it out on your own.

As for scientific shit lowering your score, it could be as instantaneous as all the anecdotal claims of "I saw it, I tried it, and I knocked off 8 strokes the next day....!!!"

If you continue to play golf with major faults, you are reinforcing those faults to the point where you are locked into your neuro-muscular mess... and no amount of remedial stuff will help you... science or feel.

 

[Robbohank]

Wow.....ok....appreciate the candidness. Interesting conundrum.... do I weigh spurious feel info from "players" more highly than I do scientific info from "chops". I probably lean to the former. (Although I have no scientific proof!)

Interesting how guys that can't play a lick don't like to rely on "feel" yet can confuse the heck outta a player with the scientific breakdown.

Don't get me wrong.... I love the science, but prefer the translation to me from a guy that can break an egg.

 

[pokerlife]

Whats the deal with SteveT .. Sounds upset about something. Some of us found a swing thought that makes the game simple for us.
Is that really so bad?

 

[mgranato]

What do you do?... well, you could go see Brian and he may do the "business" on you to take advantage of the latest scientific info.... or you could try to puzzle it out on your own.

As for scientific shit lowering your score, it could be as instantaneous as all the anecdotal claims of "I saw it, I tried it, and I knocked off 8 strokes the next day....!!!"

If you continue to play golf with major faults, you are reinforcing those faults to the point where you are locked into your neuro-muscular mess... and no amount of remedial stuff will help you... science or feel.

Yikes, at least some of my nonsense is intentional.