Back to target

[bluebird]

Well truth be told, thats science right? The goal is to stripe it past my buddies. I've been " working on a few things" for the past 8 years in an attempt to use my strength to catch up to my peers. Holding back the left shoulder appears to be a working key for myself. Once you start giving the candy we all get greedy, and want more.

I am really thankful Brian sees fit to use science to unfold some thuths, thanks Brian for sharing some of what has been locked away from us, the weekend golfer. And everyone else who contributes.

If we keep the science to within the frame work of this particular swing/ release, and within the framework of, is it verifiable and repeatable, then it may be useful to me.

The hands and the hips are still in flux, with too many options, with the little time we have untill the season rolls around. Back to the hips. Will increasing the rotational torque increase the potential for more length, if the body is able, without wrecking the accuracy?

 

[SteveT]

Robbohank, pokerlife, mgranato .... get out of your "feeeel" boxes and enter the big world of science outside the feeeel box...!!!!

Some will forever remain mired in their feeeel box and continue to bang their heads against the sides of that box... continually seeking feeeel "tips" from other boxed in feeeelers.... and feeeeling happy because they are sharing feeeelings. It's all so golfically correct...

 

[SteveT]

Back to the hips. Will increasing the rotational torque increase the potential for more length, if the body is able, without wrecking the accuracy?

Most likely the surge of kinetic energy from increased hip rotation will throw the rest of the swing out of sync... and that's normally expected. Anybody who claims they got instant good results must be questioned because not even pro golfers can maintain a synced in golfswing when they make even the smallest of alterations.

You must risk accuracy if you want more power... just look at the LD competitors and their difficulty keeping the ball in bounds. Greater energy always means more inaccuracy, even on the tour... that's reality.

The real crux of the issue is "if the body is able", because the core must carry and transmit the increased hip-generated kinetic energy to the shoulders, and that's where the problem starts. Also if the shoulder torque is increased, the arms and hands will experience new forces and that will destabilize them.

The challenge is to bring everything under control... and that can only be done with repetitive practice because there are few 'magic' moves that just slot in for great results. Even changing the hand grip slightly or a slightly different foot alignment can upset your swing results.

Golfswing teachers are faced with the problem that students expect instant results if they change their swing pattern, but the reality is they must work on the changes and bring up their swing to a higher level with those changes. Most golfers are quite deluded in their expectations.

 

[94monarch]

Is this similar to what Hardy talks about when he talks about letting the arms start the downswing from the top and the body stay stable or static? It sounds the same. I believe Hardy refers to it as a feel for a two planer trying to create width or get the arms to start the downward move. That has actually worked for me in the past. However when something works I throw it out in favor of something that does not. Then I have something to bitch about. That is the reason for playing this game is it not?

 

[SteveT]

Is this similar to what Hardy talks about when he talks about letting the arms start the downswing from the top and the body stay stable or static?

This unscientific rubbish about the arms starting the downswing just rankles me!!!!

You know what these old fart teachers are really saying? They are saying that it's futile thinking about the body initiating the downswing because the human brain is poorly equipped to allow humans to control their large body parts in a coordinated manner. Instead they are urging neurotic golfers seeking a reassuring "feeel" to "let their arms start the downswing"... so they think they can control their arms somehow.

What is all means is that the arms and hands are closer to the brain than the feet, legs and hips... so the neural signals and feedback are easier to "feeel". It's so proprioceptively pathetic ... searching for feeel so that the golfer's desperate brainlet can be preoccupied with something!!!

I really hope that Brian finally terminates some of those old dog teacher beliefs in his "What I Teach" series.

 

[ej20]

Back to the target on the downswing is not really a new thought.Jack Nicklaus advocated this and I have read a few articles on it over the years.

It is a good thought for people who have a strong tendency to come OTT with the right shoulder but if done excessively,over time you could start becoming underplane by swinging too much out to right field.

A more advanced way of doing it in my opinion is just to keep the right shoulder where it is as you start down.The feel is almost like the left side makes a strong move towards the target pulling on a right shoulder that wants to stay put.This has the effect of keeping the upper back facing the target for a split second whist not impeding your hip action.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Ej20, I don't think anyone said it was a new thought.

Your last paragraph is good, shows your Faldo influence, pulling against a resisting right side. Love it.

 

[ZAP]

I don't remember where Kevin wrote it but I remember something about getting your hands low enough before they got too forward. I played today in 28 degree weather and this though alone allowed me to hit some of the nicest iron shots I have ever hit. It also helped me get a better feeling for "going normal" since I guess I finally had somewhere to go.

Sound familiar to anyone?

 

[Shot Limit]

Robbohank, pokerlife, mgranato .... get out of your "feeeel" boxes and enter the big world of science outside the feeeel box...!!!!

Some will forever remain mired in their feeeel box and continue to bang their heads against the sides of that box... continually seeking feeeel "tips" from other boxed in feeeelers.... and feeeeling happy because they are sharing feeeelings. It's all so golfically correct...

We all have to turn this information into feels to be able to execute on the range/course. Why do you believe it's impossible to improve in this manner? Is it because personally, you haven't had success in improving your golf game? How can you deny the testimonials made by golfers here of how their games have improved? I've read a bunch.

Obviously the best scenario is to have Brian, a team of scientist and TM/FS at every range session and round of golf played but you're smart and you know that's not realistic. Hell, I'm doing real good if I can get one lesson a year.

You can't put everyone into your "never break 80 box". People can improve on their own. Sometimes they just need a little push in the right direction.

 

[Bigwill]

We all have to turn this information into feels to be able to execute on the range/course. Why do you believe it's impossible to improve in this manner? Is it because personally, you haven't had success in improving your golf game? How can you deny the testimonials made by golfers here of how their games have improved? I've read a bunch.

Obviously the best scenario is to have Brian, a team of scientist and TM/FS at every range session and round of golf played but you're smart and you know that's not realistic. Hell, I'm doing real good if I can get one lesson a year.

You can't put everyone into your "never break 80 box". People can improve on their own. Sometimes they just need a little push in the right direction.

Even with a lesson, the player has to translate what the instructor tells/shows/demonstrates into feels that they can reproduce. No reason that feels and science have to be mutually exclusive...

 

[magicmarker]

Steve. You really don't get it do you? They are saying that because to some it needs to feel like the arms beat the hips even though they know it won't happen. Tiger Woods and Butch Harmon (2 of 7) - YouTube PLEASE WATCH THIS. Maybe, just maybe, your contempt for feels will go away when you realize that some 'feels', though not real or 'scientific' in your eyes, can lead to some pretty freaking amazing golf.
When members of this forum convert valid science to the feel they need to adjust their swing in a manner they see as an improvement, and it leads to better shots/scores, why do you have a problem with this?

 

[mgranato]

Even with a lesson, the player has to translate what the instructor tells/shows/demonstrates into feels that they can reproduce. No reason that feels and science have to be mutually exclusive...

This is the incredible beauty of practicing with a real LM. It tells you instantly what feels are valid and what feels need to be replaced with better/correct feels.

When you peg it on the 1st tee, all you have are your mechanics and your feel for those mechanics - they better be pretty darn close.

 

[ekennedy]

Which is why golfers are always "working on something." Its easier to make a change toward a specific goal then it is to repeat the exact same motion, day after day, year after year.

Feel is strictly an indicator of where you have been and what you are working towards. If you "feel" the proper move, the only thing you are truly feeling is the difference between where you are currently, and where you would like to be. Eventually that feel disappears, either by reverting back or overdoing the move and it needs to be replaced by a new feel.

Just like "tumble" is a feel, eventually you "over-tumble" and the process starts over. Science will NEVER change that. We are still human beings.

 

[mgranato]

Which is why golfers are always "working on something." Its easier to make a change toward a specific goal then it is to repeat the exact same motion, day after day, year after year.

Feel is strictly an indicator of where you have been and what you are working towards. If you "feel" the proper move, the only thing you are truly feeling is the difference between where you are currently, and where you would like to be. Eventually that feel disappears, either by reverting back or overdoing the move and it needs to be replaced by a new feel.

Just like "tumble" is a feel, eventually you "over-tumble" and the process starts over. Science will NEVER change that. We are still human beings.

Elk said something to this in his book. (Paraphrasing) "We play our best golf when we're going from under-doing something we're working on to over-doing that same thing." It's the middle of the two extremes that determine how good and for how long before the process starts over.

 

[ekennedy]

This is the incredible beauty of practicing with a real LM. It tells you instantly what feels are valid and what feels need to be replaced with better/correct feels.

When you peg it on the 1st tee, all you have are your mechanics and your feel for those mechanics - they better be pretty darn close.

I couldn't agree more. Using FS, a player I taught on Saturday saw how far he was swinging left (huge tug of the left shoulder, steep AofA). We worked on keeping his back to the target for what he felt like was "too long" and his HSP went from -8 to +2. Initially the ball went right until we worked on his release which eventually became a soft draw. After a while, he could tell me he "tugged it" before checking the FS #'s.

The best part was the 14 shot improvement on Sunday.

 

[OLIVER1]

Elk said something to this in his book. (Paraphrasing) "We play our best golf when we're going from under-doing something we're working on to over-doing that same thing." It's the middle of the two extremes that determine how good and for how long before the process starts over.

What a perfect description. It's maddening because it's so true, and yet each and every one of us, in some shape, way or form believes that we can override that and one day we'll get locked into that middle bit forever!
14 clubs, lots of talent and a sprinkling of denial...Gotta love it.

 

[mgranato]

I couldn't agree more. Using FS, a player I taught on Saturday saw how far he was swinging left (huge tug of the left shoulder, steep AofA). We worked on keeping his back to the target for what he felt like was "too long" and his HSP went from -8 to +2. Initially the ball went right until we worked on his release which eventually became a soft draw. After a while, he could tell me he "tugged it" before checking the FS #'s.

The best part was the 14 shot improvement on Sunday.

Kyle Stanley?

Learning in a microwave, love it!

 

[mgranato]

What a perfect description. It's maddening because it's so true, and yet each and every one of us, in some shape, way or form believes that we can override that and one day we'll get locked into that middle bit forever!
14 clubs, lots of talent and a sprinkling of denial...Gotta love it.

It's a wonderful perspective. What would you say... most of us spend 90% (or more) playing from the fringes of the two extremes?

 

[ekennedy]

It's amazing watching players react to the flight of the golf ball and see how it affects the #'s on FS or TM on their next swing.

Which is why golf is an incredibly complicated web of constant adjustments, the majority of which, are incorrect.

 

[OLIVER1]

It's a wonderful perspective. What would you say... most of us spend 90% (or more) playing from the fringes of the two extremes?

Gosh, at least.
I can actually feel this. When I'm moving into the middle and I pull the handbrake so as not to go too far, it's like stopping an oil tanker.
Problem is, to pull the handbrake in time means never actually moving far enough from away the original rubbishy stuff. Grrrr. Must be another game out there!
"Greetings Dr. Falken. Wouldn't you rather play a nice game of chess?"