Below Plane Syndrome - experiences?

[macduffer]

I was searching through the forum to help myself with a problem I have and I found this post by Michael Jacobs, below (for full discussion, see http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/...-new-development-golf-instruction-yuck-2.html) . It is SO like what has happened to me it is uncanny:

"Below Plane Syndrome

You try to swing down and out to the inside corner....

You beat your slice add a little swivel and finally shoot in the 80's [Yup-last year]

You continue doing what you are doing - directing the club out to right field

You shoot under 80 for the first time...... [Yup - April]

You keep at -- start to develop some push and pulls -- iron play becomes erratic [yup - June]

You think you need stiffer clubs [new driver in July]

A good round could be good and a bad round awful - makes you want to take up badmitton

You start hooking and pushing drivers, you see hits off the toe and off the heel -- You start to think that you are not going inside enough -- down and out more to equal the forward.........

You end up with a wedge game with no spin and a Lie / loft machine at your bedside

[to trace a straight plane line]...it felt like i was trying to hit sand shots...[yesterday - hallelujah!]"

That last line is so true i just can't describe.

Has anyone else experienced this BPS, and how long did it take you to beat it?

 

[cmartingolf]

Probably anyone who has played golf long enough...

Typically, we all start off too steep then get to a nice middle ground (for a cup of coffee), then we go the other way (too inside out and below plane).

If you can get the club to touch the ground (or area for driver) at the right time, everytime....everything else is "showbiz."

 

[birdie_man]

macduffer this is a very common progression!!

Very important post/thread!

Slice, hook, fade, custoize.

AKA.....Slice>> Never Slice Again>> Never Hook Again>> "CUSTOM LAND."

 

[jenhaoyen]

get inside the ball then make sure your club swings to the left field.

I never really understood that, but now I do.

 

[Brian Manzella]

11° inside-out

There are teachers out there who teach you to trace a line that is 11° out to right field.

They'll tell you that if you use a certain clubface procedure through the ball, the ball will go very straight.

Baloney!

In the opening sequence of "Never Hook Again 2," I talk about how I overcame my "over inside-out" problem.

"Follow the Yellow Brick Road."

 

[jake2]

There are teachers out there who teach you to trace a line that is 11° out to right field.

They'll tell you that if you use a certain clubface procedure through the ball, the ball will go very straight.

Baloney!

In the opening sequence of "Never Hook Again 2," I talk about how I overcame my "over inside-out" problem.

"Follow the Yellow Brick Road."

The quote Macduffer found sounds so familiar. I was there probably for more than a season and only realized it a few weeks ago. Swiging more left has made my ball striking much better. Unfortunately now it's too cold here to do anything golf related outside.

I was in Florida a couple weeks ago and managed to break par the first time for 9 holes and it was some wayward drives that got me into trouble on the back nine so I ended at +3. Still my personal best.

Anyway I think I'm going to have to get NHA2 now.

I'm still struggling to get my hips open prior impact. What could help me there?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Well...

I'm still struggling to get my hips open prior impact. What could help me there?

The belt buckle is WAY AHEAD of the "race" to the ball at the top of the swing.

If everything moves together from the top—as it should—you will have no problem.

Remember!

Your weight should be moving toward your left HEEL at impact.

 

[Brian Manzella]

and....

http://homepage.mac.com/brianmanzella/.Movies/handsbehindhips.mov

 

[Michael Jacobs]

great video

 

[BurnItUp]

Hey Brian,

Where is the Luke Donald drill to which you refer?

 

[jake2]

Thanks Brian.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I am someone who battled BPS my entire life. There were times I thought I had it licked, but then it always resurfaced. I studied so hard trying to get a solutuion because if I did there was no doubt in my mind I would have made it to the Tour.
To those who have it, proceed with caution on how you fix it. NHA can and will help alot. But remember, BPS doesn't cause hooks with everyone. A true hooker (closed face, flat tilted turn, in to out path, lots of roll) wants everything in NHA, but if BPS causes more blocks and block fades, poor pitching and overall bad wedge play, and a LAST MINUTE flip(like yours truly), NHA might not help you.
Brian correctly moved me all over the Matrix to find solutions. Some worked better than others. I always felt under his instruction I was one lightbulb moment away from being cured forever. Now I have it.
Trust me when I tell you, below plane syndrome will NEVER be cured unless you change the relationship between where your lead arm/hand is and where your clubface is(Hint: soft draw). Also crucial is when you pull the handle and when you drive the face.You can do all you want to your turn and tilts but they are only temporary fixes.
I will try to talk Brian into another video on this topic alone. It would be a best seller. Thanks to his information, I will be taking one more shot at serious competition with more confidence than I ever had. I would NEVER have been able to cure this if it wasnt for him.

 

[lookingtolearn]

Great post Kevin

I am someone who battled BPS my entire life. There were times I thought I had it licked, but then it always resurfaced. I studied so hard trying to get a solutuion because if I did there was no doubt in my mind I would have made it to the Tour.
To those who have it, proceed with caution on how you fix it. NHA can and will help alot. But remember, BPS doesn't cause hooks with everyone. A true hooker (closed face, flat tilted turn, in to out path, lots of roll) wants everything in NHA, but if BPS causes more blocks and block fades, poor pitching and overall bad wedge play, and a LAST MINUTE flip(like yours truly), NHA might not help you.

This has been my problem too. For me, underplane = under the sweetspot (most of the time). I can try really hard to "stay on top of it." But that comes with distance loss and shots that go way left.

Brian correctly moved me all over the Matrix to find solutions. Some worked better than others. I always felt under his instruction I was one lightbulb moment away from being cured forever. Now I have it.
Trust me when I tell you, below plane syndrome will NEVER be cured unless you change the relationship between where your lead arm/hand is and where your clubface is(Hint: soft draw). Also crucial is when you pull the handle and when you drive the face.You can do all you want to your turn and tilts but they are only temporary fixes.

Could you expand on these a little? Were there any other keys to Soft Draw that really helped you with this?

Thanks.

 

[macduffer]

.
To those who have it, proceed with caution on how you fix it. NHA can and will help alot. But remember, BPS doesn't cause hooks with everyone. A true hooker (closed face, flat tilted turn, in to out path, lots of roll) wants everything in NHA, but if BPS causes more blocks and block fades, poor pitching and overall bad wedge play, and a LAST MINUTE flip(like yours truly), NHA might not help you.

Hmm, I seem to have both of those issues! I certainly have a very closed face and a "flat tilted turn" as you describe, but to be honest I could get the ball starting just about anywhere. The real issue was/is not constant hooks as such but the fact I could/can hit pulls, pull-hooks, normal hooks and the very occasional push/push-fade; I just never knew what was coming. My ballstriking is (or was - it's improving) worst with the driver (just hitting wormburners which always wanted to go left) and wedges (too often fat, often pushed, low flight, not much spin).

What I am working on is as follows:

1. Getting more over the ball, with straighter legs and more vertical shoulders, at address
2. A weaker grip, especially in the left hand
3. Feeling that the heel of the left hand works down and to the left during the backswing (to increase wrist cup)
4. Pivoting rather rather swaying - the old club across the chest drill. Almost feeling a S&T backswing really.
5. Trying very hard to rotate through the shot and hit left, rather than stop and sling

Does this seem a sensible strategy? Early results are promising - certainly a much higher flight, no snap -hooks, and I can actually fade a ball again. But there's the odd hosel creeping in, and I think the ball-flight has become a bit 'floaty'.

Thanks for your advice.

 

[Kevin Shields]

This has been my problem too. For me, underplane = under the sweetspot (most of the time). I can try really hard to "stay on top of it." But that comes with distance loss and shots that go way left.



Could you expand on these a little? Were there any other keys to Soft Draw that really helped you with this?

Thanks.

Staying on top of it does seem the logical answer , doesnt it? You're not hitting the root cause. You dont need a fader's pivot to get rid of under plane issues nor do you HAVE to swing more left. Look at Kenny Perry.

I will but until then, review the section in Soft Draw where Brian says good players react to where the club's weight is.

 

[wedgeplay]

BPS

Kevin:

Give us some examples of your struggles and what you did to cure them.

What were some of the things that helped you from NHA ?

 

[wdking]

"Trust me when I tell you, below plane syndrome will NEVER be cured unless you change the relationship between where your lead arm/hand is and where your clubface is(Hint: soft draw). Also crucial is when you pull the handle and when you drive the face.You can do all you want to your turn and tilts but they are only temporary fixes."
Kevin,
I have SD, but could you please elaborate on this, your "lightbulb" if you will. I am the king of BPS and hosel rockets, and my index is 6.
Thanks

 

[mb6606]

Nice video drill Brian. Swinging inside an 8 ft high plane board I discovered the turned shoulder plane is a lot more upright than what I thought. Feel versus real.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Nice video drill Brian. Swinging inside an 8 ft high plane board I discovered the turned shoulder plane is a lot more upright than what I thought. Feel versus real.

This is the biggest problem with people who swing too flat and one that i always have to show on video or on a camera to show them that what they feel as one student likes to put it as "Scot Hoch" looks orthodox.

 

[Kevin Shields]

"Trust me when I tell you, below plane syndrome will NEVER be cured unless you change the relationship between where your lead arm/hand is and where your clubface is(Hint: soft draw). Also crucial is when you pull the handle and when you drive the face.You can do all you want to your turn and tilts but they are only temporary fixes."
Kevin,
I have SD, but could you please elaborate on this, your "lightbulb" if you will. I am the king of BPS and hosel rockets, and my index is 6.
Thanks

Like I said, it will be the subject of a video if its the last thing I do on this earth.
But as Hannibal Lecter said to Starling, "Have you read the case files? I have. Everything you need to know to catch Buffalo Bill is right there in those files."

If it's really important to you, buy or review every video and youtube Brian has done on the full swing. I have twenty times over (I can hear it now - "get a life!") Just about everything he's done has a golden nugget that could help BPS. Sift thru the info and throw out everything that doesnt sound like it would help that issue.

Remember NSA and NHA as complete patterns are for people that are hookers and slicers that are "outside the Matrix". It is my understanding that alot of Brian's live lessons can have pieces of those patterns for people that aren't outside the matrix. (Ex: twistaway for someone a little under the sweetspot, but not the whole NSA pattern) BPS is a fault that causes scattered ballflight and two way misses. Even though it usually causes hooks and pushes, it really isn't solely a hooker's or soley a slicer's issue. That's why it's so hard to cure. So piecing together Brian's info was the key for me.