Ben Curtis

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NSMS

NSMS

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ThomasTheTank said:
I've always been confused myself between what some would call a flip and a full release of the arms (arms rolling over) through the ball. I know from experiencew when I was a swinger and did that + timed it right I hit the ball the furthers. To me a flip is a scoop and a roll is done wth full extension but I may be way off?
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I agree that the word flipping is describing a scooping or breakdown action of the left wrist at impact. Check out this link of his swing in slow motion. http://www.pgatour.com/swingplex/02/26/21/index.html

I see very little flipping if any going on. He is using a sweep release and somtimes this will look like a flip is going on.
 
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Brian Manzella

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NSMS said:
Could True Club Face include path as well? Then you would have just True Speed and True Club Face at Impact.
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No.

In Soccer and Football, the Kickers FOOT is traveling in A direction at impact and is POINTING in what may be a different direction.

Same thing in golf.

It is the MOST IMPORTANT THING TO LEARN for golf teachers.

The D Plane.
 
The Hammer

The Hammer

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Brian Manzella said:
No.

In Soccer and Football, the Kickers FOOT is traveling in A direction at impact and is POINTING in what may be a different direction.

Same thing in golf.

It is the MOST IMPORTANT THING TO LEARN for golf teachers.

The D Plane.
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We also know that the True Club Path at impact has little to do with the direction of the ball compared to True Club Face at impact.

Do we agree on this?
 
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Brian Manzella

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!!

The Hammer said:
We also know that the True Club Path at impact has little to do with the direction of the ball compared to True Club Face at impact.

Do we agree on this?
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The TRUE clubface contributes somewhere in the neighborhood of 80% of the initial direction.

The ball then curves AWAY from the TRUE path, if that path is "pointed" in a different direction then the TRUE Clubface.

But!

The TRUE PATH can be WILDLY different than the PLANE LINE!

Understand?
 
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Chris Sturgess

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So what is the difference between Ben Curtis' "no flip" and Peter Kostis' "flip"? Are you avoiding this question because you don't have an answer to it? It seems to me like if a tour player is playing well then they "aren't really flipping" but if they play bad or a non tour player has the same action....then they are a "stone cold flipper" and need to learn how not to flip...or something.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Chris Sturgess said:
So what is the difference between Ben Curtis' "no flip" and Peter Kostis' "flip"? Are you avoiding this question because you don't have an answer to it? It seems to me like if a tour player is playing well then they "aren't really flipping" but if they play bad or a non tour player has the same action....then they are a "stone cold flipper" and need to learn how not to flip...or something.
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They are both flipping.

Ben Curtis times it better.

Ok, Chris?
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Only the Shadow knows.....

What were you saying on the other page Brian?

His club (in the provided videos) was not LAYING BACK at impact. Therefore as far as the BALL KNOWS, he wasn't flipping.

He does flip at it a bit though, and he can sure fool the ball, because:

"He is using his Pivot to snap his Kinetic Chain, and it is assisting his arms, hands and club with creating the proper "D" Plane for the selected shot.

Everything else is show biz"
;)
 
The Hammer

The Hammer

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FOOL THE BALL WHILE FLIPPING?

Brian Manzella said:
He does flip at it a bit though, and he can sure fool the ball, because:

"He is using his Pivot to snap his Kinetic Chain, and it is assisting his arms, hands and club with creating the proper "D" Plane for the selected shot.

Everything else is show biz"
;)
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Brian, are you saying we can flip and fool the ball with a Pivot snapping the Kinetic Chain, assisting our arms, hands and club creating the proper "D" Plane for the selected shot.

I think you have dug yourself in a hole and can’t get out.

Just admit the mistake. Nobody is going to hold it against you.

We all make mistakes.
 
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pecky987

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in light of all this flipping/not flipping stuff, can i ask something.

is it now, with all new data known to us all, the position of the Manzella Academy, that a bent left wrist at impact is not a bad thing AS LONG AS the shaft is still leaning forward?????

i.e timing the flip.

and if the answer to previous question is yes, what % of people who flip it a bit and have a bent left wrist at impact need to lean to not do it? im sure if ben curtis, retief goosen or geoff ogilvy came to brian for a lesson, fixing their 'flip' wouldn't be the priority
 
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holeout

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The Hammer said:
Brian, are you saying we can flip and fool the ball with a Pivot snapping the Kinetic Chain, assisting our arms, hands and club creating the proper "D" Plane for the selected shot.

I think you have dug yourself in a hole and can’t get out.

Just admit the mistake. Nobody is going to hold it against you.

We all make mistakes.
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I think he's saying that there's flipping, and then there's flipping with the club laying back at impact. Curtis does the former; Mrs. Fabersham and the rest of the country club do the latter.

I think he probably did mis-speak when he said that he didn't see a flip in Curtis' swing, though.
 
The Hammer

The Hammer

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Flipping is Scooping

holeout said:
I think he's saying that there's flipping, and then there's flipping with the club laying back at impact. Curtis does the former; Mrs. Fabersham and the rest of the country club do the latter.

I think he probably did mis-speak when he said that he didn't see a flip in Curtis' swing, though.
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The best thing that has come out of this thread is everybody now knows what a flipping action is. I am sure some thought it was rotating the forearms before this thread.
 
dashfan87

dashfan87

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The Hammer said:
Brian, are you saying we can flip and fool the ball with a Pivot snapping the Kinetic Chain, assisting our arms, hands and club creating the proper "D" Plane for the selected shot.

I think you have dug yourself in a hole and can’t get out.

Just admit the mistake. Nobody is going to hold it against you.

We all make mistakes.
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:rolleyes: Oh brother.... your a professional... seriously? why don't you act in a professional manner?
Not like a taunting little kid on the opposite team in a pick up game of school yard basketball...

Btw... I would just like to thank self-mastery for his new avatar.... however, this put a new, and somewhat disgusting meaning behind his screen name...
 
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thefuture37

Banned
pecky987 said:
im sure if ben curtis, retief goosen or geoff ogilvy came to brian for a lesson, fixing their 'flip' wouldn't be the priority
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assuming they were coming for a swing lesson only, why wouldn't fixing their impact position be the priority? what is more important than fixing something that leads to inconsistent impact?
 
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holeout

New
thefuture37 said:
assuming they were coming for a swing lesson only, why wouldn't fixing their impact position be the priority? what is more important than fixing something that leads to inconsistent impact?
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Something tells me that the three in question don't have too many problems with "inconsistent impact." In fact, "inconsistent impact" sounds like something a 15-handicap would complain about :p.

The priority would be fixing whatever problem they were having. And at the level these three are at, hitting the ball cleanly is more than likely not the problem.
 
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holeout

New
The Hammer said:
The best thing that has come out of this thread is everybody now knows what a flipping action is. I am sure some thought it was rotating the forearms before this thread.
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Do I sense some condescension in your post?

I don't know you personally, but you seem to take yourself far too seriously.

It's just golf :).
 
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