Ben Hogan '55 swing analysis by Brian Manzella

[tourdeep]

Was it Hogan's sharp hip turn that allowed his shoulder turn takeaway to keep his head relatively motionless ( I know it rotated to the right some)?

It may be quite the opposite. His hip turn may have been restricted because of his right knee "kick in", to promote a more stable base, to minimize the sway, and too much of a hip turn. With less sway, less head movement.
With Hogan's STT, the hips just responded to his shoulder. With less movement of the hips relative to his shoulder turn, it created the necessary tension for a more powerful and repeating swing. This is quite the opposite of a hip turn like Vijay's or Mike Austin. And we know how far they hit the ball!

 

[bpgs1]

How long to make a swing change?

It's great to see this very intelligent discussion about the process of making a swing change - as opposed to the content, which normally dominates this forum and almost all of traditional golf instruction. I too am a little skeptical of David's claim to learn Hogan's swing in one day. Perhaps he is exaggerating for dramatic effect. I am always amazed at how different golfers learn a particular move - even the same move - at drastically different lengths of time. It is a pet project of mine.

I have seen some of my students learn a new move and "get it" to kind of semi-habit, short term memory execution from feel sense within as little as 30 minutes of practice. One of my students with a severe upper body reverse pivot was so angry about it that she went home after the first day of a golf school and did slow motion mirror practice for four hours, came back the next day and never once reverse pivoted - and hasn't since then, over six years ago. Steve Elkington can make a swing change literally overnight by "dreaming about the change".

So it is possible to make a swing change in a very short period of time - at least for certain golfers. The interesting thing to me - and probably to most golf teachers - is that they seem to be a distinct minority. Why do the majority struggle usually for days, weeks, sometimes even a month or two of daily practice to make a change? I think it can be traced to three "talents" or perhaps they are "intuitive learned skills" for some folks. One - a strong mind/body connection, the ability to conceptualize, see and/or feel the
change and by doing so the body responds correctly. Amazingly, some golfers seem to lack this skill/talent entirely. I am referring to the concepts so clearly explained in Perfect Impact's post above. Some golfers can conceptualize it perhaps but the body does not respond. To me this is more of a slow motion or static position kind of training using mirror for feedback.

Two - the ability to program new dynamic body motion into your subconcsious. Your conscious mind as coach and your body as the athlete. This requires an understanding of which state you are in at any given time and the unique properties of each, and gaining "permission" from the subconscious to accept the change. Some golfers can master the slow motion or position practice but there is little transfer over to the dynamic full speed motion. Programming is an art and a science.

Three - the ability to get out of your head - thinking mind - and move into your body - feeling mind. Feel the motion and pressure changes in your muscles and joints, feel the energy in your body. Some golfers are so contaminated with swing thoughts that they dont even know they are thinking. They will tell you that they are feeling the motion but often on closer questioning you will discover that they are not feeling the motion at all but thinking about feeling the motion. Big and crucial difference.


This is just a short list of obstacles that make swing changes difficult for some. There are others.

Jim Waldron

 

[birdie_man]

If you have Educated Hands and Pivot I think it's do-able....

I mean...it wouldn't be perfect in a day...but it would be not bad.

 

[Spike]

3 right hands

Thank you tourdeep. If that is what Hogan meant it explains it.
spike

 

[Spike]

Was it Hogan's sharp hip turn that allowed his shoulder turn takeaway to keep his head relatively motionless ( I know it rotated to the right some)?

After viewing the thread recommended by tourdeep where I saw a video clip of Hogan's swing, I wondered this:

Could it be that Hogan started his takeaway with his head and hands? Then once his hands passed his head the club would then lag load his wrists, pull on his arms and rotated his shoulders.

The head/hands-type takeaway being a desire for lag loading his backswing forced him to wait there visually and mentally preparing for the unloading onto the ball.

I tried it out and felt after a few tries that I could flash it!
spike

 

[David Alford]

<It's great to see this very intelligent discussion about the process of making a swing change - as opposed to the content, which normally dominates this forum and almost all of traditional golf instruction. I too am a little skeptical of David's claim to learn Hogan's swing in one day. Perhaps he is exaggerating for dramatic effect. >

Thanks. However, if I was exaggerating for dramatic effect, that would be the type of inaccuracy/lack of clarity I detest.

But...if we're talking about having this knowledge for a golfer (including myself) starting golf, I'll agree it would take a LOT longer...years.

The body has to be trained to make a pivot. The arms and hands have to be educated...

 

[Perfect Impact]

This is just a short list of obstacles that make swing changes difficult for some. There are others.

Jim Waldron

Let me throw in a biggie: HOW something is communicated to a pupil is ENORMOUSLY important, making "changes" either impossible, unrealistic, or at the other end of the continuum, immediate.

A real teaching situation will make my point: I witnessed the head pro at one of my courses giving a lesson. He correctly told the pupil that he needed a bigger turn, and that he needed to get the club "up here further." But his inability to do it at the lesson, where he was told to "go home and work on those changes" was absolutely impossible for him. NOT because he was incapable of making the changes, but because the ROOT CAUSES OF WHY HE DID NOT DO THOSE THINGS were left in place (probably from mandates of former instruction or beliefs because of the generality of instruction that fails to allow the golfer to question the "fundamentals")--so "trying" will not only be fruitless at home as it was at the lesson, HE WILL BE DESTROYED BY THINKING HE CAN'T DO IT.

The solution, then, required addressing three elements: "with your feet closer together, you can make that turn, see?" (wherein the pupil clearly could immediately have made the move asked of him), "With your hands like this instead of THIS, you can put the club HERE." (where with that slight adjustment the wristfold would have been installed immediately) and 3) THE SPECIFICITY OF EXACTLY WHERE TO PUT HIS HANDS AND CLUB which would so change the "try to do..." indefinite, unspecific, unidentified exact thing which can be made so clear, was left out.

TRYING is useless: having SPECIFICs is didactically the only way to help someone; and if you do not uncover the mandates that prevent a motion (wherein the golfer is still following advice deeply embedded and unquestioned) the old will interfere with the new and over-ride its installation.

It does no good to try when the intention of the golfer is trying something different. And "try" is evidence that how to perform the correct motion is not understood BY THE TEACHER.

 

[Spike]

Let me throw in a biggie: HOW something is communicated to a pupil is ENORMOUSLY important, making "changes" either impossible, unrealistic, or at the other end of the continuum, immediate.

A real teaching situation will make my point: I witnessed the head pro at one of my courses giving a lesson. He correctly told the pupil that he needed a bigger turn, and that he needed to get the club "up here further." But his inability to do it at the lesson, where he was told to "go home and work on those changes" was absolutely impossible for him. NOT because he was incapable of making the changes, but because the ROOT CAUSES OF WHY HE DID NOT DO THOSE THINGS were left in place (probably from mandates of former instruction or beliefs because of the generality of instruction that fails to allow the golfer to question the "fundamentals")--so "trying" will not only be fruitless at home as it was at the lesson, HE WILL BE DESTROYED BY THINKING HE CAN'T DO IT.

The solution, then, required addressing three elements: "with your feet closer together, you can make that turn, see?" (wherein the pupil clearly could immediately have made the move asked of him), "With your hands like this instead of THIS, you can put the club HERE." (where with that slight adjustment the wristfold would have been installed immediately) and 3) THE SPECIFICITY OF EXACTLY WHERE TO PUT HIS HANDS AND CLUB which would so change the "try to do..." indefinite, unspecific, unidentified exact thing which can be made so clear, was left out.

TRYING is useless: having SPECIFICs is didactically the only way to help someone; and if you do not uncover the mandates that prevent a motion (wherein the golfer is still following advice deeply embedded and unquestioned) the old will interfere with the new and over-ride its installation.

It does no good to try when the intention of the golfer is trying something different. And "try" is evidence that how to perform the correct motion is not understood BY THE TEACHER.

Well said and very true!

I believe that golfing definitions are a huge criteria for not only the student but the teacher, too. It is amazing how people can think they are describing the same action but really are not.

As teachers we are allowed to get away with it because the student doesn't know the difference. We can start to believe ourselves as more and more students nod and look at us with believing eyes.

Even as I say these words, I know I still have more to learn. Should our creado be....."first do no harm"?

spike