Ben Hogan '55 swing analysis by Brian Manzella
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Brian Manzella
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birdie_man
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Wicked Brian.
Can't wait for video man.
Keep it comin'.
Can't wait for video man.
Keep it comin'.
tongzilla
New
Thanks for another great audio Brian. We all really appreciate your time and effort.
- I've always wanted to say this and Brian has finally mentioned it -- that Hogan's swing isn't as flat as many believed it to be, he was perfectly on the turned shoulder plane (not flatter, e.g. elbow plane) at the top, but his hands just didn't go that far back, and hence not as far up either, making it seem as if it's a flat swing.
- Straight Line Delivery Path. I don't know if Brian is trying to simplify this for the masses or whatever. It doesn't matter which Delivery Path you're using, it's always a straight line effort, not just the straight line delivery path. Yes, even with the Circle Delivery Path! Study 6-E-2-1.
Indeed, in reality the straight line portion of the delivery path is much shorter than that depicted in the photos of the book, making it look much more rounded.
- I don't understand how Brian drew that black line to depict the arched left wrist in Frame 10. Sorry, I just can't see his left wrist arch the way the line is drawn. It looks pretty flat to me! The orange line showing the bent right wrist in the same frame seems to contradict that black line. The amount of right wrist bend should correspond with the amount of left wrist bend, but the lines cross in the photo.
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Brian~
Thanks for the sequence and audio analysis.
I was assuming photo 5 was the "top." After reviewing the various swing sequence in McLean's Hogan video including one with a grid background and another with Hogan's comments about the most important part of the swing, I believe there are interesting if not important motions/positions at "5 plus" including a head position similar to 6 before the club is reversed. BTW, there is also a clip with maybe a unique view above and looking down the angle of approach showing his arms and hands from about hip level through impact.
DRW
Thanks for the sequence and audio analysis.
I was assuming photo 5 was the "top." After reviewing the various swing sequence in McLean's Hogan video including one with a grid background and another with Hogan's comments about the most important part of the swing, I believe there are interesting if not important motions/positions at "5 plus" including a head position similar to 6 before the club is reversed. BTW, there is also a clip with maybe a unique view above and looking down the angle of approach showing his arms and hands from about hip level through impact.
DRW
"the angle of approach showing his arms and hands from about hip level through impact"
Here's half of it from .06 to .03 before collision
http://www.network54.com/Forum/72052/message/1130107499/Hogan
Here's half of it from .06 to .03 before collision
http://www.network54.com/Forum/72052/message/1130107499/Hogan
birdie_man
New
Cool.
Left wrist looks very flat.
Left wrist looks very flat.
David Alford
New
Brian, in an earlier post I corrected your statement that Hogan's leg is straight at the top of his backswing. I said "trust me, it isn't".
In this second analysis you refer, to me presumedly, that I am in my own world for thinking it is not straight.
In an earlier post I also cautioned readers about flawed analyses, going so far to imply this is a central problem with golf instruction.
One day you will get some good video of Hogan from down the line and you will discover "you should have trusted me".
While Hogan usually wore blocky pants that tended to hide his rt. knee flex, there is little doubt the right leg/knee is indeed flexed.
The interested reader need not take my word on the matter. It is self apparent in footage from "In Pursuit Of Perfection" or the Shell Match.
Anyway, this is how things go wrong...and the innocent student suffers.
In this second analysis you refer, to me presumedly, that I am in my own world for thinking it is not straight.
In an earlier post I also cautioned readers about flawed analyses, going so far to imply this is a central problem with golf instruction.
One day you will get some good video of Hogan from down the line and you will discover "you should have trusted me".
While Hogan usually wore blocky pants that tended to hide his rt. knee flex, there is little doubt the right leg/knee is indeed flexed.
The interested reader need not take my word on the matter. It is self apparent in footage from "In Pursuit Of Perfection" or the Shell Match.
Anyway, this is how things go wrong...and the innocent student suffers.
Ben Hogan states in his "FIVE LESSONS" book that on the backswing the right leg should remain in the same basic position it was in at address. In all the drawings in the book, including the one on the cover, it shows that his knee is definitely in a flexed position. And, as David Alford mentions, the video clearly shows that his knee is flexed.
bantamben1
New
i just looked and mapped out some swings i have on my computer of hogan in the shells video and clips of In Pursuit Of Perfection. and in the short iron clips hogan does indeed keep his left knee flexed but in the long irons and especially the driver he definately straightens his right leg but it still does have some degree of bend into it
birdie_man
New
I dunno how you guys can say it is clearly anything....
I've yet to see a video where you can really tell.
It isn't "clearly" flexed, IMO.
I don't think there's anything really harmful going on here Mr. Alford....mere difference of opinions.....tough to tell from this sequence. Looks like it straightens a bit to me...
Honestly don't think it's that big of a deal whether Hogan's right knee is flexed or not. Experiment and see what works better for you...
I've yet to see a video where you can really tell.
It isn't "clearly" flexed, IMO.
I don't think there's anything really harmful going on here Mr. Alford....mere difference of opinions.....tough to tell from this sequence. Looks like it straightens a bit to me...
Honestly don't think it's that big of a deal whether Hogan's right knee is flexed or not. Experiment and see what works better for you...
David Alford
New
This wasn't an incidental point that I am nit picky at to uspstage Brian.
HOGAN SPECIFICALLY WORKED ON RETAINING HIS RT. LEG FLEX, as Biff correctly noted.
If you experiment with wearing the blocky type pants Hogan usually wore, you' see as you turn your hips, the pants will tend to straighten
a bit even though the knee flex has been retained. This can throw off one's analysis.
One can never be too vigilant...
HOGAN SPECIFICALLY WORKED ON RETAINING HIS RT. LEG FLEX, as Biff correctly noted.
If you experiment with wearing the blocky type pants Hogan usually wore, you' see as you turn your hips, the pants will tend to straighten
a bit even though the knee flex has been retained. This can throw off one's analysis.
One can never be too vigilant...
David Alford
New
birdieman, the video, "In Pursuit of Perfection" has a lot of down the line sequences. Not one does Hogan have a straight right leg, even allowing for the "pants phenomenon", lol.
birdie_man
New
It's ok....I don't think you're trying to upstage anyone....don't read into it so much. I just don't see how you can say that his knee was "clearly flexed."
From what I have seen....I don't know what to think anymore....flexed or straightened a bit.
I do value Brian's advice more than yours though, I have to say....and I don't mean anything against you personally with that David- it would be the same for anyone really.....except maybe Lynn or a few others.
From what I have seen....I don't know what to think anymore....flexed or straightened a bit.
I do value Brian's advice more than yours though, I have to say....and I don't mean anything against you personally with that David- it would be the same for anyone really.....except maybe Lynn or a few others.
birdie_man
New
Have never seen the video. Point taken though.
David Alford
New
Get the video, you'll see who is correct.
If I had more time I would post a down the line long iron sequence of Hogan that shows even greater knee flex at the top than at address. I also have seen still pics of Hogan swing in shorts (rare!), and the issue is absolutely clear (rt. leg is flexed).
Let me make an additional observation. Several people on this forum want me to spill my guts on Hogan's secrets, to just post in a paragraph or two what I know. This is a perfect example of why I won't.
I have to build a lawyer's case with abolute proof on even minor FACTS or otherwise people tend to question it or go along with an erroneous opinion of a teacher who should have done their homework as I HAVE.
I'm not just referring to Brian, here. Let's include almost every Hogan analysis I've ever read including the books by the number two rated instructor in the world. Yes, our friend, David Leadbetter. Brian will at least be pleased, I rate his analysis over DL's.
If I had more time I would post a down the line long iron sequence of Hogan that shows even greater knee flex at the top than at address. I also have seen still pics of Hogan swing in shorts (rare!), and the issue is absolutely clear (rt. leg is flexed).
Let me make an additional observation. Several people on this forum want me to spill my guts on Hogan's secrets, to just post in a paragraph or two what I know. This is a perfect example of why I won't.
I have to build a lawyer's case with abolute proof on even minor FACTS or otherwise people tend to question it or go along with an erroneous opinion of a teacher who should have done their homework as I HAVE.
I'm not just referring to Brian, here. Let's include almost every Hogan analysis I've ever read including the books by the number two rated instructor in the world. Yes, our friend, David Leadbetter. Brian will at least be pleased, I rate his analysis over DL's.
birdie_man
New
It does seem to stay fairly bent in this one...if you look at the front of his leg (ignore the back- cause of the pants).
http://www.geocities.com/sixbeeonedee/hoganHit.mpg
Although this is the only DTL sequence of Hogan I've ever seen.
http://www.geocities.com/sixbeeonedee/hoganHit.mpg
Although this is the only DTL sequence of Hogan I've ever seen.
quote:Originally posted by TexasAg
It may not be "locked" straight, but it's pretty darn close.
Sorry, Texas, don't agree on this one. The angle can be deceptive. The rotation of the hips has rotated his leg and the viewing angle makes it appear that the leg has straightend. I will concede that there is a very slight straightening action, but this is no more than the natural motion caused by the rotation. There may also be instances in Hogan's career where his leg actually did straighten much more, but he stated in his book that it is important that the right leg remain in the same basic postion it was in at address.
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