If Hogan wanted help with his swing from me, I would simply explain how his swing compares to one that I believe matches up best with the construction and biomechanics of the human body. It would be up to Hogan to decide if he wanted to change anything. Since Hogan was so successful, I wouldn't presume to recommend that he make any changes unless he could see that it would be an improvement. Even though Hogan's swing worked well for him, I would never teach it to other's. Hogan's swing, in many aspects, is technically sound, but it also consists of some necessary compensations, just as is the case with Tiger Woods. The problem with Tiger is that he doesn't compensate as well as Hogan did.
Ben Hogan '55 swing analysis by Brian Manzella
- Thread starter Brian Manzella
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birdie_man
New
Yes. But no one said ramrod straight David.
No one said straight (as far as I remember)....
Brian said:
"I NEVER SAID straight, I said Straighten-ing.
You can put a dot on the screen in MANY Hogan videos from behind and the damn knee is NOT in the SAME PLACE AT as it was at ADDREESS.
Got it? The knee LOSES some flex?
Need me to draw a picture?
David Alford
New
DRW, I have dozens of full swing video plus stills. In the sequence Brian has used, I don't see a straight right leg. I see a leg that is slighly flexed and that flex is even underestimated because of the "pants phenomenon" I have stated previously. The most telling are down the line sequences. But I have to ask, is anyone going to the "more photos of Hogan" thread, because the stills there clearly show a flexed rt. leg.
I don't even know why this is an issue. The leg is not straight, and that's OBVIOUS.
I don't even know why this is an issue. The leg is not straight, and that's OBVIOUS.
bantamben1
New
david i think the point isnt if the leg is straight i nore brian never said the leg is staight , i am just trying to say that as he and alot of golfers turn their hips their left knee bends some and their right knee straightens some from their original amount of bend at address.
David Alford
New
Here's what Brian actually said:
1st audio: "In frame 5...Hogans right knee is ABSOLUTELY STRAIGHTENED.
2nd audio: "Contrary to what anybody says beause they are stuck in their little world, Ben Hogan straightened his rt. leg on the backswing".
Now, his error in audio one is clear. Audio 2 could be intrepreted in various ways, but almost every student would infer the right leg is to be straightened to ....straight.
Something is straight or it's not. If it's not straight, it's flexed. Why call something "straight" if you don't mean it? And "absolutely straightened" leaves no ambiguity as to the error of the analysis.
Only subsequently to my posts has Brian backed off. He couldn't say, "ya' got me, David". Instead he has to switch tactics and change the story.
I said "trust me". I know what I'm talking about when it comes to Hogan, and what you'll get from me is dead accuracy, because these partially accurate analyses aren't very helpful. Something is either done correctly, or it's not.
Let me illustrate. Let's say you want to log into this forum. Try typing in "www.manzellagolffourm, com". You won't get anywhere.
What's the problem? A comma instead of a dot before "com".
Things have to be accurate. That is the basis for understanding. That is the basis for implementation. A lot of people, literally millions, have tried to figure out Hogan's swing. There is a crystal perfect formula, like E=mc2. Not E=mc3 or E=mc1. It has to be exact, or the whole thing fails.
I'm sorry if I seem so stern. Trust me, I'm hardest on myself because I probably don't have the talent to hit the ball correctly with less than a fully accurate model basis.
There are other flaws in Brian's analsysis, but I'm sure not going to go into them give the response here. Overall, it was a fairly well done positional analysis. Is that good enough? Not for me. I guess it depends on one's standards. If I seem to get screwed out of joint, it's because details are EVERYTHING to me.
1st audio: "In frame 5...Hogans right knee is ABSOLUTELY STRAIGHTENED.
2nd audio: "Contrary to what anybody says beause they are stuck in their little world, Ben Hogan straightened his rt. leg on the backswing".
Now, his error in audio one is clear. Audio 2 could be intrepreted in various ways, but almost every student would infer the right leg is to be straightened to ....straight.
Something is straight or it's not. If it's not straight, it's flexed. Why call something "straight" if you don't mean it? And "absolutely straightened" leaves no ambiguity as to the error of the analysis.
Only subsequently to my posts has Brian backed off. He couldn't say, "ya' got me, David". Instead he has to switch tactics and change the story.
I said "trust me". I know what I'm talking about when it comes to Hogan, and what you'll get from me is dead accuracy, because these partially accurate analyses aren't very helpful. Something is either done correctly, or it's not.
Let me illustrate. Let's say you want to log into this forum. Try typing in "www.manzellagolffourm, com". You won't get anywhere.
What's the problem? A comma instead of a dot before "com".
Things have to be accurate. That is the basis for understanding. That is the basis for implementation. A lot of people, literally millions, have tried to figure out Hogan's swing. There is a crystal perfect formula, like E=mc2. Not E=mc3 or E=mc1. It has to be exact, or the whole thing fails.
I'm sorry if I seem so stern. Trust me, I'm hardest on myself because I probably don't have the talent to hit the ball correctly with less than a fully accurate model basis.
There are other flaws in Brian's analsysis, but I'm sure not going to go into them give the response here. Overall, it was a fairly well done positional analysis. Is that good enough? Not for me. I guess it depends on one's standards. If I seem to get screwed out of joint, it's because details are EVERYTHING to me.
David Alford
New
And to better illustrate, "www.manzellagolffourm, com" has three errors. The comma as noted. Then "fourm" is misspelled. Then there is a space between the comma and "com". Small matters, but you won't get anywhere with even one of them.
My point is that inaccuracy is soooh easy....the only way to kill the monster that is the golf swing is to nail down the details. They do add up!
My point is that inaccuracy is soooh easy....the only way to kill the monster that is the golf swing is to nail down the details. They do add up!
bantamben1
New
nice clear post brian
David Alford
New
Brian, I'm sure you like to consider yourself a fair individual.
Therefore, I'd like to post my audio rebuttal. Fair enough?
Therefore, I'd like to post my audio rebuttal. Fair enough?
David Alford
New
And here's a promise. I won't resort to derogatory comments like "little Brian Manzella" in referring to you. A courtesy you didn't extend to me.
David Alford
New
I'd also like to talk to you by phone. Drop me an email and let's set it up.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
David, you can call me anytime—although today is bad during business hours. 502.417.4653
And you can post audio or video links on here anytime.
And you can post audio or video links on here anytime.
David~
What caught my attention in the post I referenced was your comment about beginning the downswing. I didn't intend to contribute to the knee flex matter.
Hogan said the most important part of the golf swing is the movement from the top, which is between photos 5 and 6. These frames are missing. If you have video, I was interested in your comments and ability to post positions. The latest tournament swing video I have of Hogan is at the 59 Colonial with an iron.
BTW, when I click on the the site at the bottom of your posts, there is the image of a golfer but no options.
DRW
tongzilla
New
Here's a question to Brian, FourBarrels, Billy, and other real world teachers out there:
If Ben Hogan took a lesson with you right now with his 1955 swing, what would you do to his full swing pattern? Ditto 1948 swing. Would you change anything? Any upgrades? Lets say it's off-season and he has a medium term commitment with you.
Brian, I hope you haven't backed off my slightly challenging question.
I'm sure a little audio would interest a lot of people.
If Ben Hogan took a lesson with you right now with his 1955 swing, what would you do to his full swing pattern? Ditto 1948 swing. Would you change anything? Any upgrades? Lets say it's off-season and he has a medium term commitment with you.
Brian, I hope you haven't backed off my slightly challenging question.
I'm sure a little audio would interest a lot of people.
David Alford
New
DRW, please email me davidleealford@aol.com
The golfer is me, it's just a one pic web page.
More is coming.
The golfer is me, it's just a one pic web page.
More is coming.
billmckinneygolf
New
1955? I'd just give him a long putter and tell him to keep his shoes shined!
He was still the gd best ball-striker on the planet then.
He was still the gd best ball-striker on the planet then.
billmckinneygolf
New
Oh, I'd also get a lob wedge for him.
In the 48 swing I wouldn't change a thing. That
was probably the best swing that has ever existed
at any time. EVER.
He even said that was his best year of hitting it and
that the post-accident swing was never as good.
In the 48 swing I wouldn't change a thing. That
was probably the best swing that has ever existed
at any time. EVER.
He even said that was his best year of hitting it and
that the post-accident swing was never as good.
David Alford
New
Well, Bill I believe I have recreated it. I was never intimidated by Hogan as many are. In fact, I was very confident I possessed better physcial attributes. No, let me rephrase that. I KNEW I did. Now, before everyone jumps on my ego here, I'll readily admit there are LOTS of guys who have better physcial attributes than I do, at least given my age.
And when I was seriously injured and got older, I still refused to be intimidated. What one man has done, another can do. I will never have his golf record, but I can hit perfect golf shots and lots of 'em. But, in fairness, it's really kinda' Hogan himself doing it, because IT IS his swing. Kinda' spooky, actually.
And when I was seriously injured and got older, I still refused to be intimidated. What one man has done, another can do. I will never have his golf record, but I can hit perfect golf shots and lots of 'em. But, in fairness, it's really kinda' Hogan himself doing it, because IT IS his swing. Kinda' spooky, actually.
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