Ben Hogan '55 swing analysis by Brian Manzella

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6bee1dee

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A straighten right leg (though not stiff, locked or rigid) is “Maximum participation” as Ben says and Mac teaches. Allows for a better hip turn.
 
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Brian Manzella

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David...

I NEVER SAID straight, I said Straight-ing.

You can put a dot on the screen in MANY Hogan videos from behind and the damn knee is NOT in the SAME PLACE AT as it was at ADDREESS.

Got it? The knee LOSES some flex?

Need me to draw a picture?
 
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David Alford

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I don't agree at all in trying to compromise on this. Hogan insisted on retaining the rt. knee flex. In all of the sequences I have he does, although this pic shows less than all the others, but again the pant's phenomenon is real.

As I said, I have a down the line sequence where it is flexed MORE than at address. So, naturally, there was some variance on either side of the ideal which was to hold the same flex as address.

Mac O'Grady does NOT straighten his rt. leg at the top. Ben may teach this, I don't know. Bobby Schaffer used to. It has it's proponents, but Mr. Hogan was not one.

Time to go, I'm repeating myself.
 
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David Alford

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Brian, all you have to do is go here for the 3rd time: http://www.golfresearch.com/hoganpictures/frame_17.html

And, you are changing the topic of leg straightening to moving. They are not the same, but FYI, Hogan tried to minimize knee movement as well. Of course, there is some as dots will show.

And you can diss the "pants phenomenon", but I have seen pics of Hogan swinging in shorts, and there is no debate. As HE SAID, HE TRIES TO KEEP THE RT. KNEE FLEX THROUGHOUT THE SWING. He does not try to straighten it. Have fun, and let me know when you can swing like Hogan.
 
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bantamben1

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quote:Originally posted by David Alford

I don't agree at all in trying to compromise on this. Hogan insisted on retaining the rt. knee flex. In all of the sequences I have he does, although this pic shows less than all the others, but again the pant's phenomenon is real.

As I said, I have a down the line sequence where it is flexed MORE than at address. So, naturally, there was some variance on either side of the ideal which was to hold the same flex as address.

Mac O'Grady does NOT straighten his rt. leg at the top. Ben may teach this, I don't know. Bobby Schaffer used to. It has it's proponents, but Mr. Hogan was not one.

Time to go, I'm repeating myself.
Click to expand...

DAVID DAVID DAVID, you really should be careful how you post have you spent any time with mac ogrady. it would be more proper to say that in the pics that you have mac doesnt straighten his right leg. but i know for a fact mac does straighten his right leg alot and does teach it end of story and the picture above of hogan his right leg is about as straight as you can get without popping backwards. try it yourself start unbending your right leg until it hits that point where your knee pops back right before that is what hogans leg looks like ther ignoreing the back of his pants. also why dont you post a video with you in shorts and show us how it is possible to get a decent amount of hip turn with out straightening the right leg, from my experience the only way to do it without straightrning the right some, would be to really bend that left knee. end of story. looking forward to that video clip
 
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bdog

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1bb2.gif


Enjoyed the photos and audio analysis of Hogan's swing.
 
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David Alford

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I'd be interested in seeing a video clip of Mac with a stright rt. leg at the top. He is so low and flexed at address, it would be a huge shift upward. Huge. Unless we are speaking of a different swing model than the one is famous or infamous for. Or unless he is playing left handed so the straight rt. leg is now his forward leg!

I've spoken with Mac, watched him play, and videotaped him. Never comes close to a straight rt. leg playing rt. handed.
But, show the clip if you've got it.

Brian, I'm honest enough to say the pic above shows Hogan with what seems to be a relatively straight leg. However, appearances can be deceiving. His true leg flex is hidden by his pants. Hogan sometimes played with less knee flex at address than at other times. He tried not to straighten it anymore than what he started with. His own words, cited in a prior post, contradict your claims.

IMHO, you are not being honest in commenting on the link I posted which shows Hogan at the top with a lot of flex. Why are you ignoring this? Obviously because it contradicts your theory. You are also avoiding a lot of other footage showing retention of his leg flex. You have not addressed the valid "pants phenomenon" anyone can observe by watching how the pants tends to straighten as the hips are turned even though leg flex stays the same and is hidden unless one has X-ray vision.

To address your remark, how you get a decent amount of hip turn, take a look at Hogan's hip turn and flexed rt. knee
in "Pursuit of Perfection". Yes, Hogan "really bent his left knee".

You have done a good job of position analysis except for this and your unwillingness to admit your error is not helping innocent students
who trust you. You also haven't penetrated into what Hogan really did to achieve those positions. And that is the only way anyone will be able to approach Hogan's swing with any realistic hope of benefiting from his/her efforts.

Position analysis is all the rage in the golf magazines. It's fine...but by itself is insufficient to recreate a swing. Good golf swings create good positions, not vice versa.
 
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Archie Swivel

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I am starting to get the feeling that Hogan must've been the opposite of Homer. Homer was not a player and probably could not break 75 routinely, if at all. But his teachings are gospel. On the other hand, Hogan was one of the best players of all time, yet his teachings in his book (5 Lessons) are all fallible? Hogan said what he did in his book. How can we revere Hogan's play, but ignore his teachings?

* "As regards the right leg, it should maintain the same position it had at address, the same angle in relation to the ground, throughout the backswing".

** "At impact the back of the left hand faces toward your target. The wrist bone is definitely raised....Every good golfer has his left wrist in this supinating position at impact"

*Ben Hogan's Five Lessons (Ben Hogan 1957) at Page 75.

** Id. at Page 101.
 
birdie_man

birdie_man

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This debate is gettin dumb....

Do what you like to do. If this move was as dramitcally important as it's being made out to be then you should notice RIGHT AWAY how much of an effect this magical knee has on your swing, right?

Do your own testing....figure it out.

Who cares.

....

BTW are you still doing the video Brian?
 
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BigBadDonkey

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David all the top guys have a good diaginal\rotary right hip movement = less knee flex at top of backswing. Period. Some get it almost straight others don't.
 
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DOCW3

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quote:Originally posted by David Alford

DRW (and Brian), you can also see Hogan's rt. knee flex retained in the thread "Other Pictures Of Hogan" (in birdieman's post).
Click to expand...

David~

Hogan obviously thought right knee flex was important and really worked it in his address routine. I am not questioning that flex is retained but do agree with Brian's observation. However, the change is a result and not something to be initiated. My curosity is with the motion that causes the change.

JMHO.

Thanks for the link.

DRW
 
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bantamben1

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* "As regards the right leg, it should maintain the same position it had at address, the same angle in relation to the ground, throughout the backswing".

what hogan is saying here is what mac does he retains the sam angle in relation to the ground not the same knee flex, look at the pics you have of mac again and at hogans david you say if mac strightened his leg he would raise on the backswing but hogan and mac at he same time they are increasing there left knee bend as the straigten there right thats why from down the line there is a gap between there knees, how else can you explain that also i have maybe a 100 clips of mac and have been told at least 20 times by him how the knees work in conjunction with the hip turn and he does do exactly what he says and teaches. if you dont beleive mepony the money down and go down and see for yourself if you pas the initian
 
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Biffer

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The flexion of both knees is a very important indicator of how the hips are moving. If the hips tilt or dip to the left in the backswing the left heel usually remains grounded and as the left leg flexes the knee will drop down slightly. At the same time, the right hip will move upward and the right leg will move to the rear which reduces the right knee flex. If the hips turn level and the left knee moves straight out toward the target line and pulls the left heel up, the left knee will retain its flex.

In the photos I have seen of Hogan there are times when his heel seems to stay down and other times when there is a definite upward movement.
 
tongzilla

tongzilla

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Here's a question to Brian, FourBarrels, Billy, and other real world teachers out there:

If Ben Hogan took a lesson with you right now with his 1955 swing, what would you do to his full swing pattern? Ditto 1948 swing. Would you change anything? Any upgrades? Lets say it's off-season and he has a medium term commitment with you.
 
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David Alford

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There are many, many pics of Hogan with his rt. knee flexed at the top of the swing and none with it ramrod straight. Part of the problem is exactly when the pic is taken. Hogan felt he wanted to keep that flex, it's not a small matter, he really worked on it as I have. Believe me,
it's easier to just let it straighten as is the natural tendency.

Part of the mystery is solved when you realize that in a fraction of a second, the rt. leg is pushing off and will straighten as the downswing begins. So the precise instant the pic is taken is critical.

Bottom line, you can't get as good a pushoff from the rt. leg if the rt. leg was straight to begin with. It's as simple as that.
 
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