Ben Hogan's REAL Secret is...................

[jeffy]

quote:Originally posted by ej20

I don't think Hogan was as long as some people here make him out to be.In his book,The Five Fundamentals,he hit 2 iron from 200y at the 1950 Open at Merion.Not much diff in distance with irons back then and now,maybe 15y with the balls.I also read somewhere that he hit Driver,3 iron,pw at the 490y 13th Augusta before they lengthened it.Tiger hit Driver,8 iron.

As Brian has mentioned before, since the courses were shorter in those days, premier players like Hogan and Snead did not "bust" their irons. Neither did Nicklaus. It may surprise you that at the 1974 Masters, Jack had 180 yards into 15 and used a 5 iron, which his caddie Willie said was his standard distance with that club. That was when Jack was still very long.

BTW, Hogan hit the par fives at Augusta in two all the time.

 

[jeffy]

quote:Originally posted by shootin4par

quote:Originally posted by ej20

But he would be below average in distance by todays standards.Can anyone confirm what Hogan's clubhead speed was?

you are probably right in your assumption. judging by how little clubhead lag hoagan had he might even be below average, espicially considering how he also broke down at impact.

s4p-

I've spent too much time on Quinton's site: for a minute I thought you were serious! LOL...

 

[jeffy]

quote:Originally posted by ej20

quote:Originally posted by jim_0068

quote:Originally posted by ej20

I don't think Hogan was as long as some people here make him out to be.In his book,The Five Fundamentals,he hit 2 iron from 200y at the 1950 Open at Merion.Not much diff in distance with irons back then and now,maybe 15y with the balls.I also read somewhere that he hit Driver,3 iron,pw at the 490y 13th Augusta before they lengthened it.Tiger hit Driver,8 iron.

The 2 iron of hogan's day was more like the 4 iron of today (loft wise.) He also did with with a wound golf ball that probably spun a lot more than the balls do today.

Agreed.But let's get more facts straight.Hogan I believe also used LONGER shafts than usual.

Actually, they were a quarter inch shorter than standard, according to "Afternoons with Mr. Hogan".

 

[jeffy]

quote:Originally posted by ej20

That 2 iron Hogan hit didnt carry all the way.It bounced on the front edge of the green and it was nuked.He said it was the best shot he hit all tournament.

And Hogan's 4 iron would have been delofted to a 2 iron anyway.I don't think many players today deloft that much,perhaps Parnevick.

Well, he is said to have actually hit a one iron (which was stolen from his bag right after the round), despite what is in "Five Lessons", even though the shot called for a faded four wood. At the end of his first double round day after the accident, he was leaking oil like crazy, was just hoping to finish the round and decided to knock it into the middle of the green, hoping to get down in two putts. I read that the shot came off OK, nothing spectacular, and wound up at least 40 feet away. Highly unlikely it was his "best shot of the tournament", albeit perhaps the most important.

 

[Garth]

The only club i've ever heard of that was a little longer in Hogan's bag was his 3-wood. He liked it the same length as his driver.

 

[David Alford]

I've read his driver was 1" longer than normal.

 

[shootin4par]

quote:Originally posted by jeffy

quote:Originally posted by shootin4par

quote:Originally posted by ej20

But he would be below average in distance by todays standards.Can anyone confirm what Hogan's clubhead speed was?

you are probably right in your assumption. judging by how little clubhead lag hoagan had he might even be below average, espicially considering how he also broke down at impact.

s4p-

I've spent too much time on Quinton's site: for a minute I thought you were serious! LOL...

uh, yeah I think I was being serious, right ej

 

[bpgs1]

This is my first post on this very, very interesting forum. You guys are doing a great job in these discussions to advance the game of golf. I am heartened to see it. My two cents on Hogans secret. First, There is a teaching pro here in Portland who knows more about Hogan and his ideas about the golf swing than anyone else alive. Her name is Julie Miller and has been working for over a decade on her book about Hogan's swing model. She became his best friend in the last years of his life and they spoke often and at length about the golf swing. I can't wait to read it, we all will just have to wait for it to be published.

econd, I have spent a good chunk of my life researching Hogan and his ideas on the golf swing and the very first thing that become quite obvious was that he had more than one "secret" - many in fact. He told many individuals that "this" was his secret and they have all reported totally different things. My own understanding is that there were many, many but divided into two clear categories - mental and physical. He told John Schlee that they were "Rules" and that one of the big ones was 100% mental focus on and 100% emotional commitment to a very small, precise target picture during the swing. As far as anything having to do directly with shotmaking, I believe that was his number one mental "secret". His number one physical secret was to setup and to swing in rock solid balance - especially during Impact. He worked for countless hours on being "grounded" during Impact.

I learned that as an 11 year old kid from Paul Hahn, Sr. the famous trick shot artist from the 50's and 60's. I asked him what the secret to great ballstriking was and he said. "Kid, this is the secret. If you setup and swing in rock solid balance, it is physically impossible to badly mis-hit a golf ball." Hogan also believed in external right hip rotation as a stabilizing force for balance in the segment of the swing from hands about waist height to almost impact. Visually that means a right heel that is moving toward the target - leading the right right toe, with the inward half of the right foot sole on the ground and the welt of the shoe digging into the turf. He told a Texas oil millionaire in a bar in the Dallas airport back in the seventies that this was his "secret". The guy offered to pay Hogan $10,000 right there for it and Hogan said "You can have it for free". By the way I just returned from a month of teaching golf schools in Hawaii and we were very fortunate to have MIchelle Wie practicing next to us for many hours. She was doing several drills as per the above Hogan secret.

Another part of this particular Hogan secret was the inward sudden contraction of both inner thigh muscles toward each other just before and during impact. That move is crucial for staying in balance during impact. I call it the scissors move and is really the key to creating a resisting left leg "wall" through impact.

 

[EdZ]

Heck of a first post there bpgs1.

 

[kmmcnabb]

Great post. Not sure I have digested the last part fully but will look at it more before I comment more.

 

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by bpgs1


Hogan also believed in external right hip rotation as a stabilizing force for balance in the segment of the swing from hands about waist height to almost impact. Visually that means a right heel that is moving toward the target - leading the right right toe, with the inward half of the right foot sole on the ground and the welt of the shoe digging into the turf.

Another part of this particular Hogan secret was the inward sudden contraction of both inner thigh muscles toward each other just before and during impact. That move is crucial for staying in balance during impact. I call it the scissors move and is really the key to creating a resisting left leg "wall" through impact.

Great to have you on board bpgs .

I have always noticed how a lot of great players (e.g. Trevino, Hogan, Els) heels do not get lifted off immediately during the downstroke. The outside of the right foot gets pulled off first, with the inside firmly planted on the ground. Then the rotation of the hips and the momentum of the club pulls the left heel off the ground much later during the stroke. This is in contrast to what many younger players do today, e.g. Tiger Woods and Adam Scott, whose right heel comes off the ground immediately before and weight gets shifted onto the inside.

This has several advantages as you've mentioned. Also notice that if your tendency is to have your heel come off really early during the downstroke, your right hip will also spin out. This will make it more likely for the average player to roundhouse (hands coming over the top to prevent collision with the hips) and so causing an outside in clubhead path and a bent plane line. However, if you roll the weight to the inside of your right foot first, your right hip stays more inside so your hands can take a straight line delivery path to the ball. This is a great of example of how joint movement of one body part will have direct consequences on movements of other joints.

The misconception of pushing off with your right foot during impact to add extra power has to do with this. The reality is that the foot initiates the very beginning of the downstroke, while the knees, hips, shoulders, etc. gradually overtake the feet. This action is very slight and in itself, does not cause any part of the right foot to come off the ground. It is the overtaking action caused by the momentum of the club that carries the feet into the finish position.

 

[rbaumgolf]

"Another part of this particular Hogan secret was the inward sudden contraction of both inner thigh muscles toward each other just before and during impact. That move is crucial for staying in balance during impact. I call it the scissors move and is really the key to creating a resisting left leg "wall" through impact."

I think Ben Doyle calls this "squeezing the dogs tail"

Let the dog out (squat) and then "squeeze his tail"

 

[mb6606]

Hogan's secret (three letter word) is found in this clip
http://www.megspace.com/sports/moeto...demo_clip.html.

 

[bpgs1]

Very accurate observations, Tongzilla. Besides preventing the too early and too much internal right hip rotation - "spin out" as you call it - it also helps tremendously in maintaining your forward spine angle. And you are right, I believe this spin-out does contribute to over the top shoulder action during transition. The right foot grounding/external right hip rotation stabilizing action also supports the scissors action which occurs a bit later. This is the adductor muscles contracting for a micro-second during impact and is part of what I call "pivot thrust", similar to TGF ideas I believe. Ben Doyle does describe the scissors action on his tape as "catching the big dog's tail" but does not elaborate. Baseball batting coaches teach a similar action to their hitters.

I know from my friend Mark Clare who posts on this forum that Hogan told Ballard that he felt like he "squeezed his right nut inwards with his inner right thigh" at the same time as he did the same with left thigh. Michelle Wie was doing two drills over and over last month on Oahu: one - hitting 3/4 wedges maintaining contact with the ground with her right foot, just kind of rolling inwards through impact into finish so that the inner half of her sole was still on the ground. two - her Dad (who coaches her under Leadbetters direction) would hold the grip end of a club against the outside heel portion of her shoe applying downward pressure until just after impact.

Since you are hitting the ball in the middle of a massive transfer of body weight - from both lateral shift and rotation - you could argue that one of the most important fundamentals in the golf swing, and one of the most difficult to master, is achieving real solid dynanmic balance during the Impact segement. A lot of my students "stall" or even stop their body pivot unwinding during impact precisely because they do not understand that you hit the ball in the middle of this massive transfer. It defies their common sense that it could ever be accomplished successfully. It just seems impossible to them.

Their instinct to "just use their arms" takes over as their body stalls. So I work with them on achieving a stable lower body, first at Setup, and later on during the swing motion dynamically. Hockey players dig the edge of their skates into the ice while doing the slapshot, martial arts brace the supporing leg or legs when kicking and punching...there are parallels in other sports. I think Hogan appreciated how important this princple is and so spent a lot of time on the practice range working on this.

CBS did a Swingvision super slow-mo of Vijay last year focusing on the lower body action and impact and you could clearly see how his right heel led the toe and then the entire right foot actually paused just before and until impact, before releasing and spinning around. I know that Tiger does not have this move, has the flaw actually, and that Moe Norman mentioned this in print right before he died. And Jim McLean has written about his and Carl Welty's discovering a pumping action of the right foot in some of the tour pros they had taped at Doral, which I think is another way of doing this move.

 

[jeffy]

quote:Originally posted by bpgs1
Michelle Wie was doing two drills over and over last month on Oahu: one - hitting 3/4 wedges maintaining contact with the ground with her right foot, just kind of rolling inwards through impact into finish so that the inner half of her sole was still on the ground. two - her Dad (who coaches her under Leadbetters direction) would hold the grip end of a club against the outside heel portion of her shoe applying downward pressure until just after impact.

Of course, Jack Grout made young Jack hit countless balls with his heels down, and no one hit the ball like Jack did in his 20's.

 

[jimmydean]

tongzilla,
i agree with your assessment wholeheardedly. i beleive that when tiger gets wild it is a result of getting off his right hell too soon, among other things. he doesn't seem to do it when he is hitting his shorter clubs. he is more "grounded". i beleive that you have to have perfect timing to get off your right heel as soon as tiger.
jimmy

 

[rcandgolf]

quote:Originally posted by bpgs1

Their instinct to "just use their arms" takes over as their body stalls. So I work with them on achieving a stable lower body, first at Setup, and later on during the swing motion dynamically. Hockey players dig the edge of their skates into the ice while doing the slapshot, martial arts brace the supporing leg or legs when kicking and punching...there are parallels in other sports. I think Hogan appreciated how important this princple is and so spent a lot of time on the practice range working on this.

What thoughts or drills did you use with your students to promote this action?

 

[bpgs1]

Most Drills are tough to explain with enough clarity in a post like this for you to benefit. You need to be there and see it demonstrated and feel the sensations. One drill though that is fairly easy to explain verbally is what the previous person mentioned about Niclaus hitting balls with his feet on the ground, similar to the drill I described Michelle doing.

In this case, right foot staying glued to the ground until just after impact. Kenny Perry does this better than anyone. Caveats: do it with a half swing first until you master the move, then 3/4 backswing.And - if you lack flexibility, it is impossible to do without totally freezing out your pivot motion and making an all arms swing - which of course is the kiss of death

As for thoughts, I dont believe in ever using "swing thoughts" when swinging at normal swing speeds especially with the intention of hitting a golf ball solid and to a target. Thinking works as preperation before the shot though, in that case, just the concept I talked about inm the above posts that you need to "get it" that you hit the ball in the middle of a massive weight transfer, and that means trusting your innate athletic ability to make that kind of fast, dynamcic and "out of control" feeling (from an emotional and "common sense" standpoint) kind of move. Most golfers are terribly "ball bound" and "impact bound" and we have drills for those, a whole one day golf school in fact. The other concept kind of training that helps a lot of folks is understanding that the lower body pivot is never a conscious direct power source, ie let go of any notion of "driving your legs", "pusing off the right foot", "driving the right knee toward the ball", or "spinning the hips" for power. There are of course some tour pros who do some of things, but they get away with it due to superior athtletic ability and thousands of swings so they have grooved the compensations for both timing and balance issues. Most do not, even if they "think" they do, or they do it in a very gentle and subtle way. The whole "feel versus fact" syndrome. THe really good ballstrikers today who use the modern, compact, rotary style swing with few moving parts do none of these things, especially those who have worked with Leadbetter. Tongzilla described the sequencing above rather brilliantly, I think. What you believe to be true (subconscious mind - not concsious mind) as per your power sources becomes manifest in your body motion, and applying power with your legs especially is a really destructive idea to good balance, mechanics and timing.

 

[jeffy]

I've been taking practice swings standing on inflated vinyl discs like you see at the gym (there was a picture of Els doing this in a recent golf mag), something LPGA great Carol Mann recommended that I do. My sense is that this encourages the type of lower body action you describe. My experience is that you either do it right and swing through with power and balance (and finish feeling like Michelle Wie looks when she is hitting her 100 yard wedge shots), or you are pulled off, or topple off, the disks...And, trying to apply any of the common power thoughts (drive the right knee, spin the hips, etc.) throws you out of balance.

 

[Erik_K]

quote:Originally posted by jeffy

I've been taking practice swings standing on inflated vinyl discs like you see at the gym (there was a picture of Els doing this in a recent golf mag), something LPGA great Carol Mann recommended that I do. My sense is that this encourages the type of lower body action you describe. My experience is that you either do it right and swing through with power and balance (and finish feeling like Michelle Wie looks when she is hitting her 100 yard wedge shots), or you are pulled off, or topple off, the disks...And, trying to apply any of the common power thoughts (drive the right knee, spin the hits, etc.) throws you out of balance.

Excellent points here. When you swing in balance, you are swinging with a maximum amount of efficiency and the club stays on the best track to the ball. When you 'add' muscle to the swing, this will throw you off and that's when leakages are introduced in the form of compensations.