birdie_man
New
Are we on it? (straddling perhaps)
Bent left wrist and Open clubface
- Thread starter tongzilla
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mgranato
New
My guess would be that at address there is no wrist cock. But once the left wrist is cocked (at the top) AND it's cupped (bent) it usually means the right wrist is cocked rather than bent back - I think Brian mentions (in NSA) that cocking both wrists is a sure way to have an open face at the top.
Some alternatives in my opinion (clubface at impact and bending left wrist):
- if you keep face square you end up changing both shafts forward lean and lie angle > this only changes loft at impact
- if you keep lie angle constant and change only forward lean > closes club face
- if you keep both forward lean and lie angle constant > opens the club face
- if you keep face square you end up changing both shafts forward lean and lie angle > this only changes loft at impact
- if you keep lie angle constant and change only forward lean > closes club face
- if you keep both forward lean and lie angle constant > opens the club face
tongzilla
New
golfaholic
New
If the left wrist is cupped and the right wrist is flat at address the clubface is closed. If the left wrist remains cupped and the right wrist straight throughout the swing without any wrist cock or forearm rotation the clubface would remain closed. However, if the wrist cock in this incorrect posistion, or the forearms rotate w/o a flat left wrist than this would alter the plane and open the face in relationship to the correct plane.
Here's more non-TGM thoughts:
Cupped left wrist should mean that you hit the ball earlier in the swing if you look at from the point of view of your hands (hands are not leading as much, less shaft forward lean - like Ringer said), which means that your pivot and forearms could also have rotated less at impact (if timing is otherwise the same). This means that clubface could be open also at impact, even if it looks closed at address.
Cupped left wrist should mean that you hit the ball earlier in the swing if you look at from the point of view of your hands (hands are not leading as much, less shaft forward lean - like Ringer said), which means that your pivot and forearms could also have rotated less at impact (if timing is otherwise the same). This means that clubface could be open also at impact, even if it looks closed at address.
tbyeaton0627
New
what if the cupped left wrist is becuase of a strong grip? for every degree the left wrist is rotated is how much bend the wrist will have, you can still have a geometrically flat left wrist...
My guess is this.
The bent left wrist at address and the bent left wrist at the top of the backswing are entirely different. The bent left wrist at the top of backswing happens because of an over rotation of the left forearm and/or a cock right wrist.
If you manage to completely reverse it, then you are probably ok at impact. However, many may not be able to completely reverse the rotation on the downswing, thus leaving an open clubface at impact.
Am I correct? .. really hope to get all of Brian's videos .. ;-)
daniel
The bent left wrist at address and the bent left wrist at the top of the backswing are entirely different. The bent left wrist at the top of backswing happens because of an over rotation of the left forearm and/or a cock right wrist.
If you manage to completely reverse it, then you are probably ok at impact. However, many may not be able to completely reverse the rotation on the downswing, thus leaving an open clubface at impact.
Am I correct? .. really hope to get all of Brian's videos .. ;-)
daniel
Chris Sturgess
New member
The cocking/bending of the left wrist on the backswing (by cocking I mean like if you address the ball and then lift the toe of the club straight up toward your forehead with only wrists) which results in a toe down open clubface at the top of your backswing. From that open position if you actually came down to impact and held off the wrists so they stayed in that postion then the clubface would be open at impact too. But in almost all cases, the wrist are released from that "upcocked" postion so they unbend and then they get released so far that they bend back the other way (flipping, flip hooks). So that is why the clubface gets closed at impact. The wrist were over released/released too early, even if they may have been bent open on the backswing.
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Clubface wouldn't be open at the top, unless you increase the cup?
I was assuming cupping from flat=square position (neutral grip).
strataboy-Gary Ho
New member
Win?
So did anyone win the videos?
So did anyone win the videos?
Dana Dahlquist
New
Yeah that is right, but what that would mean is a geometric lane change of the baseline targetline. If your going to go shallow and flatten it out for impact. Depends really on whats important, ball flight and line control.
Personally I would not change it up front if a guy always did that. How ever it would be best that he knew he did.
I heard Freddie say at one time after working with Butch how he now can hit a draw. I never took much into what he was working on,or looked for photo's of it. But to me, it looked like they just pointed out the situation and said get to your finish. Like what was said before, loss of angle quicker and more CF action.UMMMMM never seen him hit many knock downs after Butch.
I could be very off base. If so let me know. I just liked the guys motion.
Chris Sturgess
New member
bump
I'll try...
Since Brian hasn't given us the answer yet, I'll take a stab at it...
Since we're only talking about the bending of the wrist, picture it as a door hinge connecting the arm and clubshaft, with the clubshaft lying on the face of an inclined plane. If the arm and shaft are inline (zeroed out Accumulator #3), bending of the hinge will result in both layback and closing, and the face will remain square to the plane, but appear "closed" to the target line. When the angle between the arm and shaft is made more acute (as it would normally be at address) there will be more layback and less closing. So, it would still be closed to the target line, but open to the plane. The more acute the angle between arm and shaft (e.g., wristcock at the end of the backswing), the more layback and less closing you would get when the wrist bends.
Since Brian hasn't given us the answer yet, I'll take a stab at it...
Since we're only talking about the bending of the wrist, picture it as a door hinge connecting the arm and clubshaft, with the clubshaft lying on the face of an inclined plane. If the arm and shaft are inline (zeroed out Accumulator #3), bending of the hinge will result in both layback and closing, and the face will remain square to the plane, but appear "closed" to the target line. When the angle between the arm and shaft is made more acute (as it would normally be at address) there will be more layback and less closing. So, it would still be closed to the target line, but open to the plane. The more acute the angle between arm and shaft (e.g., wristcock at the end of the backswing), the more layback and less closing you would get when the wrist bends.
flecker205
New
hi,attended a couple of seminars with the Harmons here in the UK few years back.I think Freddie had just won again,first time in a while, and Butch was actually saying how he couldnt hit a fade before working with him?
He'd stacked the iron boxes up inside and Freddie was nailing them everytime even with a nine iron(way inside)
Just going off what he said-Freddie (strong grip)-needs to be more cupped at top-Olazabal weak hence a flatter(bowed) wrist at top?
what preference would you have grip wise Dana for your model-stronger?
p.s discovered your site recently really enjoy it thanks!
Dana Dahlquist
New
Well I would not really say Butch was spot on with that answer. He played that Push Cut for years before Butch. Can't speak about his brother though.
Yeah I like the strong grip. I have my limits though.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
OK, ok....
Here is the first big hint:
If the shaft was on a VERTICAL PLANE at address, and you bent the left wrist, you would only add loft.
If the shaft was on a HORIZONTAL PLANE at address, and you bent the left wrist, you would only close the face.
But, it is on an ANGLED PLANE at address, and bending the left wrist does both.
So...
Why does bending the left wrist OPEN THE FACE, at the Top of the swing?
Here is the first big hint:
If the shaft was on a VERTICAL PLANE at address, and you bent the left wrist, you would only add loft.
If the shaft was on a HORIZONTAL PLANE at address, and you bent the left wrist, you would only close the face.
But, it is on an ANGLED PLANE at address, and bending the left wrist does both.
So...
Why does bending the left wrist OPEN THE FACE, at the Top of the swing?
Hmmm... open the face relative to what? It's already 90 degrees open relative to the plane. From there, wouldn't the wrist bend be producing layback only, relative to the plane?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Relative...
Relative to the PLANE.
Relative to the PLANE.
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