Bent left wrist and Open clubface

[hcw]

Here is the first big hint:

If the shaft was on a VERTICAL PLANE at address, and you bent the left wrist, you would only add loft.

If the shaft was on a HORIZONTAL PLANE at address, and you bent the left wrist, you would only close the face.

But, it is on an ANGLED PLANE at address, and bending the left wrist does both.

So...

Why does bending the left wrist OPEN THE FACE, at the Top of the swing?

...'cause at the top the L wrist is also cocked?

 

[tongzilla]

ok, so assuming the club is parallel to the ground at the top which means it's on the horizontal plane, then any horizontal movement (i.e. bending or arching) of the left wrist only causes the clubface to open or close.

 

[tobell]

So...

Why does bending the left wrist OPEN THE FACE, at the Top of the swing?

Answer:

The clubface is still closed!

A bent left wrist doesn't open the face at the top of the swing, the clubface is in fact still closed when the left wrist is bent at the top. However when the downswing starts (from the ground up, while we try to maintain clubhead lag pressure) the pivot pulls the arms under the sweetspot because we are trying to maintain lag pressure against the sweetspot, this move causes the lever assemblies to "turn" (or counter rotate)--and shift down to a lower plane for delivery-- and now our alignments have changed but we have maintained lag pressure and the hands are leading (maintaining lag) the way to impact.

 

[Brian Manzella]

No.

So...

Why does bending the left wrist OPEN THE FACE, at the Top of the swing?

Answer:

The clubface is still closed!

A bent left wrist doesn't open the face at the top of the swing, the clubface is in fact still closed when the left wrist is bent at the top. However when the downswing starts (from the ground up, while we try to maintain clubhead lag pressure) the pivot pulls the arms under the sweetspot because we are trying to maintain lag pressure against the sweetspot, this move causes the lever assemblies to "turn" (or counter rotate)--and shift down to a lower plane for delivery-- and now our alignments have changed but we have maintained lag pressure and the hands are leading (maintaining lag) the way to impact.

I didn't say ANYTHING about what "would or might" happen from there...

I am saying that the clubface is MORE OPEN at the top TO THE PLANE if the left wrist is bent, and the question is why.

 

[danng721]

Essentially, the clubface is flipped upside down (rotated vertically 180 degrees) with respect to the plane line on the ground at the top of the backswing. As a result, "closing the clubface" with respect to its own orientation will actually open it with respect to the plane line.

This can be explained way more clearly with a simple diagram.

 

[tobell]

Sounds logical, is there a basic guide, for example swing to the top assuming it is parallel to the base of the plane line on a flat lie is almost 180 degrees thus the face rotation is 180 degrees...does in flip when you pass 90 degrees of backswing and club rotation but prior to that the left wrist address laws stay intact..then are inverted once 90 is exceeded?

 

[tobell]

Clubface/clubshaft orientation

Brian said,

"I am saying that the clubface is MORE OPEN at the top TO THE PLANE if the left wrist is bent, and the question is why."

At address the clubface orientation is perpendicular to the base of the inclined swing plane, at the top of the plane the club is swiveled approximately 90 degrees such that the clubface lay flat on the inclined swing plane or a plane parallel to it. Stated simply the orientation of the clubface is rotated from perpendicular at address to flat at the top relative to the swing plane. This 90 degree (horizontal) clubface swivel coupled with a (vertical) clubshaft backswing of greater than 90 degrees in effect "flips" everything relative to the plane line. This is why the bent left wrist closes the clubface at address but when rotated on the horizontal axis flat to the plane then lifted on the vertical axis at least 90 degrees it is now open or flipped relative to the plane.

 

[Amen Corner]

At adress the face lies at 90 degress to the plane.

During the ideal backstroke, with a flat left wrist at the top, the face turnes 90* open to the plane.

By bending the wrist the face opens more!


Close?

 

[PBH]

Another variation:

When the left wrist is cocked, the bending and arching of the left wrist rotates
the shaft -> open and closes the face.

 

[lia41985]

Amen Corner,
Maybe close--but how about the fact that address, the left wrist is bent (for example, if you use mid-body hands instead of impact fix) and 90 degrees to the plane. Why can't you maintain that bent left wrist and still be square to the plane at the top of the swing?

 

[blehnhard]

I believe that the correct answer is that if we bend the left wrist at address, it "closes" the face relative to the Plane Line ONLY. When we are discussing "open" and "closed" at the top, we are referring to the face's relationship with the plane itself, not the plane line at the base of the plane. Therefore, while the face may be "open" to the plane itself due to bending of the left wrist and the turning of the left arm, it still may be effectively "closed" to the plane line itself.

Bruce

 

[Chris Sturgess]

bump. What is the answer Brian?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Hold.

I have figured it out, but is a little complex yet for an easy response.

A hint: It is in 3D space...and laid off is MORE OPEN than ACROSS THE LINE, with all things else being equal.

 

[birdie_man]

BumperOO.

(when you got the minutes Brian)

 

[joeparr]

So what is the answer ? Who won?

 

[welshdentist]

I have figured it out, but is a little complex yet for an easy response.

A hint: It is in 3D space...and laid off is MORE OPEN than ACROSS THE LINE, with all things else being equal.

Is it not to do with the direction of the left wrist cock combined with the roll of the forearm and if the club is on plane at the top of the backswing.

The way I see it a cupped left wrist at the top has a more open clubface relative to the plane with a laid off shaft than a cupped left wrist and a shaft postition that crosses the line relative to the ideal plane a golfer would wish to swing down.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Absolutely, Babe. —Don Villavaso

The way I see it a cupped left wrist at the top has a more open clubface relative to the plane with a laid off shaft than a cupped left wrist and a shaft postition that crosses the line relative to the ideal plane a golfer would wish to swing down.

You are soooooooo correct!

 

[Chris Sturgess]

Would you guys agree that how open the clubface is should be judged only from a flat left wristed condition. Because impact will (should) have a flat left wrist and never bent. So if someone has a bent left wrist at the top their clubface postion is an illusion, if they were to hold their at the top postion, and then flatten their left wrist, then that would be their true clubface angle to judge open and closedness by. Also in rare cases that somebody like maybe Tom Lehman would bow their left wrist at the top, then their clubface is actually not quite as closed as it appears unless they are equally bowed at impact.

 

[jake2]

All esle being equal?

Is it not to do with the direction of the left wrist cock combined with the roll of the forearm and if the club is on plane at the top of the backswing.

The way I see it a cupped left wrist at the top has a more open clubface relative to the plane with a laid off shaft than a cupped left wrist and a shaft postition that crosses the line relative to the ideal plane a golfer would wish to swing down.

If the laid-off/across shaft position at the top was caused by difference in forearm rotation, wouldn't the same forearm rotation at impact cause the same thing (more/less open)?.

This may be trivial, but I'm still wondering about the original question's cup closing the face at impact part: Can you cup your left wrist AND keep all else equal AND still have sweetspot at the ball?

 

[welshdentist]

I may have already bought all the videos, and Brian did give a big hint

But am I still a winner?