BLOG: The Biggest Lie Ever Told in Golf Instruction History

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Brian Manzella

Administrator
IMO,

This thread could go off topic fast.

Back to the THESIS:

It is easier to move low point forward for the flipping hacker, if you fix his clubface and have him make a Tiger Woods, late-Ben Hogan type pivot on the backswing, then it is to lean them left or center them at the top.

Period.

Please discuss, question, etc.

But don't get lost in the variations...:)
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
If anyone were to ask me how I personally took care of my low point issues I would say, in order...

1. Lagging clubhead takeaway-sets up everything else
2. Hands behind the sweetspot(face) to the top
3. Counterfall
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
If anyone were to ask me how I personally took care of my low point issues I would say, in order...

1. Lagging clubhead takeaway-sets up everything else
2. Hands behind the sweetspot(face) to the top
3. Counterfall

Great Post Kevin!

Here is something I didn't mention, the laging clubhead takeaway will move low point forward faster than any ONE other thing.
 

ggsjpc

New
IMO,

This thread could go off topic fast.

Back to the THESIS:

It is easier to move low point forward for the flipping hacker, if you fix his clubface and have him make a Tiger Woods, late-Ben Hogan type pivot on the backswing, then it is to lean them left or center them at the top.

Period.

Please discuss, question, etc.

But don't get lost in the variations...:)

I guess I don't get it. you stated at the beginning "Low Point is much more dependent on hand and wrist conditions than anything else" and I agree. How does this statement connect with pivot. Wouldn't you address hand and wrist conditions first(or is this what you mean my fixing the clubface)? Why does the pivot even matter to the hacker?
 
I employ a LCT. Why does a lagging club takeaway move the low point forward faster than any one thing?

Like Kevin counterfall has helped me control my low point as well.
 
If anyone were to ask me how I personally took care of my low point issues I would say, in order...

1. Lagging clubhead takeaway-sets up everything else
2. Hands behind the sweetspot(face) to the top
3. Counterfall

Kevin, I totally get how 1 and 3 do this, but am just curious about what you mean by 2. Feel free to delete this question if it's too much of a tangent. Or email me.

Great explanation, Brian. It makes so much sense when you see it explained I wonder "why didn't I understand that before?"
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
........

Wouldn't you address hand and wrist conditions first(or is this what you mean my fixing the clubface)?[/QUOTE]

I would NOT fix THROWAWAY first.

That's what I mean by hand and wrist condition is THIS respect.

Why does the pivot even matter to the hacker?

Well in this case—using Finch as an example—he has a HORRIBLE PIVOT.

In my opinion, he "learned" this pivot trying to square up his horribly open clubface.

So that's where I'd go first.

Wouldn't take 5 minutes.

Now, you see, that current horrible pivot of Finch's—the one "designed" to help him flip the face squarer—would produce a left-to-left shot after the face is fixed.

NOW YOU HAVE TO FIX HIS PIVOT.

Do you get it now??
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Niblick,
For me, under the sweetspot means under the plane and then flippity dippity do. If I do a real strong LCT and get those hands behind the face at the top I can just straight line it right to the ball and then left, never worrying about low point. There was a time I played some pretty decent golf under the sweetspot with a little flip. Now, with Brian's help, I cant even conceive of playing any other way than this.
 
Questions???

What if P&B COMPLETELY agreed that a centered head pivot alone DID NOT increase the probability of making contact on the target side of the golf ball, just that it may help?

Threadjack time, but...
Would there be an epidemic of slicers in the game if everyone was taught to keep their weight forward?
 
Kevin, hands behind face means what? Any example by way of a feel or picture? By the way, this is an incredibly important thread. Thanks to Brian and Kevin for the great posts.
 
ps as a side note,

i'd love an analysis of THAT swing i posted. not in this thread, just for sake of seeing one of my favourite swings analiysed. now, back to the thread
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Questions and Answers.

Would there be an epidemic of slicers in the game if everyone was taught to keep their weight forward?

It was taught that way in the 70's, along with some bastardized version of a flat left wrist at the top, and people still sliced it.

The better players HOOKED it more.

Simple "twistaway: and a decent left hand grip would eliminate the slice from golf in 5 years, especially if taught with a decent pivot.


Is a PGA tour player who hits 28% of fairways with a driver really a great model to develop a swing producing the longest-straightest shots with the most predictable d-plane?

If you are referring to Tiger, he ain't my model, but in that regard, if he swung at 125mph, he'd hit more fairways. If he played one shot 95% of the time, he'd hit more, so let's not throw his technique under the bus.

I was using him as a version of what I feel is "orthodox."

This is more my center of the Manzella Matrix model. lean and pivot (print view) wise:
sneadtripod.gif


Would everyone be less against a pattern if maintaining extension in the Right wrist through impact was taught early in EVERY lesson?

You need to re-phrase that one. Could be taken too many ways.

Can a player succeed with different alignments, grips and postures?

No problem.

How many people will now become very upset with me?

I certainly am not upset with you defending what you think is correct.

It does remind me that I have to do a video takingabout what I do and don't think, like and don't like, technique-wise. I think if I tested my critcs on this, they'd do pretty poor.

That's my fault, and I will do better.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
;)

What if P&B COMPLETELY agreed that a centered head pivot alone DID NOT increase the probability of making contact on the target side of the golf ball, just that it may help?

I have some old tapes of lessons I did in the late 80's. You could torture me by making me watch them over and over.

Same goes for about 2004.

You see, I don't measure myself against other teachers. I measure my results, against perfection and realistic expectations.

So, to answer your question, I didn't say it couldn't move low point forward, I said it was less than ideal.

It would help if they said they might be wrong though.

I stand by that.

Would there be an epidemic of slicers in the game if everyone was taught to keep their weight forward?

Would you like to do an experiment seeing who could fix slicers the best?
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Kevin, hands behind face means what? Any example by way of a feel or picture? By the way, this is an incredibly important thread. Thanks to Brian and Kevin for the great posts.

Im sorry. Its just the way I phrase the whole twistaway, lagging sweetspot feel. I dont say twistaway because I have far from a neutral grip. The feel im going after is the weight never overtaking my hands. Its lagging behind early in the takeaway while not rotating, then catches up with a tiny twist (more in the right hand) about chest high, then crosses the line a bit with the right palm visually behind the face to someone looking from down the line. it might be one version keeping the sweetspot in balance that Guitar Hero has alluded to.

Think backswing of a tennis forehand. No swinging, hinging or rotating the sweetspot there. All on the downswing, baby.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
great video clip. i am able to see what you are talking about as far as getting that hip bump, etc...and how the differences are to the s/t and tripod setups. one thing that i'm not totally clear on is whether you start that little hip bump and then the arms go down. that's what it appears to me and i wonder if this is correct? i feel i do the hip bump and turn correctly but perhaps i get my arms to drop too soon and i hit behind?
btw...looks like you've slimmed down some more, brian.

I remember your swing from other threads. You could carry your arms more and dump them down later.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
The THESIS, the thesis.....

I had to delete some threads that were off topic too much.

This thread is NOT an anti-AnyPattern thread.

It is a simple premise.

Is the only or best way to move low point forward, leaning left or staying dead-centered?

In my well stated opinion, absolutely not.

Lets discuss THAT.

OK?
 
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