Brian Manzella
Administrator
We are talking about quite a few folks. Got that?
BLOG: The Biggest Lie Ever Told in Golf Instruction History
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We are talking about quite a few folks. Got that?
Brian, I think all Dan meant with his remark is that if you are so ignorant you don't know you are wrong, then it isn't a lie - it's just plain ignorance. Of course, there are different kinds of ignorance, too.
And the effect - whether by a lie or just by ignorant teaching - has the same result as far as the student goes, the teaching has the opposite effect from that intended. The "cure" makes the problem worse.
birdie_man
New
One of your best posts ever. (your original post)
This is another "debate-ender for a debate that should have ended a long time ago."
This is another "debate-ender for a debate that should have ended a long time ago."
i actually have my own theory on this. and it may not be received well.
i believe that leaning left or staying centered DOES move low point forward
BUT, and its a very BIG but, it doesnt actually move it forward much at all in anyone who has the smallest ounce of intelligence ad athletic ability in them.
"Pecky, what on earth are you on about???"
allow me to explain.
for example, imagine someone leans left, and maybe hovers on the left foot a bit for good measure. now as brian correctly notes, you cannot move forward from the top doin this. instead you must go back and this motion is likely to produce a wide downswing and throwaway and a further back low point. not good.
but, ther very reason you have to move away from the target is becauseif you didnt your low point would be too far forward. and you'd probably completely miss the ball. so you either throw it away or tilt back away from target and create a very wide delivery path
i still whole heartedly believe that it is infinately better to lean away from the target then stay centered or lean to the left, but the statement "biggest lie ever told" is maybe slightly off the mark
i believe that leaning left or staying centered DOES move low point forward
BUT, and its a very BIG but, it doesnt actually move it forward much at all in anyone who has the smallest ounce of intelligence ad athletic ability in them.
"Pecky, what on earth are you on about???"
allow me to explain.
for example, imagine someone leans left, and maybe hovers on the left foot a bit for good measure. now as brian correctly notes, you cannot move forward from the top doin this. instead you must go back and this motion is likely to produce a wide downswing and throwaway and a further back low point. not good.
but, ther very reason you have to move away from the target is becauseif you didnt your low point would be too far forward. and you'd probably completely miss the ball. so you either throw it away or tilt back away from target and create a very wide delivery path
i still whole heartedly believe that it is infinately better to lean away from the target then stay centered or lean to the left, but the statement "biggest lie ever told" is maybe slightly off the mark
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Peck's Theory
Again.
The Biggest Lie Ever Told is that a centered or left SHIFTING pivot is the BEST or maybe the ONLY way to fix a too-far-back low point.
The only folks I currently teach a RIGHT leaning pivot is folks who need some NSA2-type pattern.
Think about the LUNACY of the "lie's" Lie.
Ben Doyle—for 40 years—has taught a standard pivot, with the LOOK of right lean, setting up WELL BEHIND the ball, STAYING well behind the ball, etc.
Without fudging the plane line left—which would move low point forward all thing being equal—and maybe even slightly exaggerating the inside-aft quadrant, and having NOBODY above the plane, maybe having a slight majority slightly below plane.
All things that you THINK would—by POP INSTRUCTION FALSE logic—move low point BACK!!
But, I saw 100's of Ben Doyle students, myself being one, and if they didn't have a perfect low point, almost everyone had it TOO FAR FORWARD!!!!!
Why?
Hands.
What stupid theory will I blow up next?
Again.
The Biggest Lie Ever Told is that a centered or left SHIFTING pivot is the BEST or maybe the ONLY way to fix a too-far-back low point.
The only folks I currently teach a RIGHT leaning pivot is folks who need some NSA2-type pattern.
Think about the LUNACY of the "lie's" Lie.
Ben Doyle—for 40 years—has taught a standard pivot, with the LOOK of right lean, setting up WELL BEHIND the ball, STAYING well behind the ball, etc.
Without fudging the plane line left—which would move low point forward all thing being equal—and maybe even slightly exaggerating the inside-aft quadrant, and having NOBODY above the plane, maybe having a slight majority slightly below plane.
All things that you THINK would—by POP INSTRUCTION FALSE logic—move low point BACK!!
But, I saw 100's of Ben Doyle students, myself being one, and if they didn't have a perfect low point, almost everyone had it TOO FAR FORWARD!!!!!
Why?
Hands.
What stupid theory will I blow up next?
i agree with everything said.
but i think my point may have been missed. when i said "leaning right" what i really meant was the standard pivot that you described. i meant that is infinately better then staying centered or leaning left.
my point - and theory you could call it - is that centered/leaning left, does actually move low point forward, but the likely hood of it actually working and you ending up with a decent hand path on the downswing is 1 in a billion. that one being sergio garcia.
i state again that the reason that in reality, leaning left or centered-ness wont bring low point further forward, or the belief it is the only way to do it, is because if you moved forward from this less then ideal position at the top, you would drag low point so far forward, if you had an anywhere near narrow hand path you miss the ball competely, as in, the divot would start a number of inches forward of the ball.
try this. set up normally with normal ball position. then shift ALL your weight onto your left foot. if you now pose a max-part. position at release point then slowly bring the club forward and down you'll see how the club will go over the ball and probly bottom out somewhere outside your left foot.
its like brians divot-wall drill. you have to make sure your head does go way forward or you'll drag low point forward and end up with a poor pivot to boot..
hope this clears things up brian, and if you would like to blow this theory up, i'd be honoured
Clearwater
New
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
And if you dont move it right, very few are agile, quick, and athletic enough to get it the hell out of the way after you move it further left and down.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
What a Joke.
You spend a few hours on a thread, two long well thought out BLOG posts, and at the end, someone jacks the whole thing.
I have had it with the notion, based on NOTHING but comparisons to a lot of poor teachers.
Leo, I love you dearly dude, but I have been at this game a long time. Just yesterday I went out to hit some balls to warm up for a little 9-hole round.
I passed a few folks on the range, six to be exact (I went back and counted), and notice something amazing.
Everyone of them had the so-called perfect backswing for moving low point forward.
They had NO weight shift, fairly steep shoulders, and next to zero left shoulder travel.
I would bet high that not one of them had EVER BROKEN 90, and not one, trying, could make ball-divot contact.
Hmmmm....
In a contest between a shitty reverse pivot bastardization, and a lagging clubhead takeaway, the LCT would move low point more forward as easily as I could have fixed all of those poor souls on the range in about 10 minutes each.
You spend a few hours on a thread, two long well thought out BLOG posts, and at the end, someone jacks the whole thing.
I have had it with the notion, based on NOTHING but comparisons to a lot of poor teachers.
Leo, I love you dearly dude, but I have been at this game a long time. Just yesterday I went out to hit some balls to warm up for a little 9-hole round.
I passed a few folks on the range, six to be exact (I went back and counted), and notice something amazing.
Everyone of them had the so-called perfect backswing for moving low point forward.
They had NO weight shift, fairly steep shoulders, and next to zero left shoulder travel.
I would bet high that not one of them had EVER BROKEN 90, and not one, trying, could make ball-divot contact.
Hmmmm....
In a contest between a shitty reverse pivot bastardization, and a lagging clubhead takeaway, the LCT would move low point more forward as easily as I could have fixed all of those poor souls on the range in about 10 minutes each.
tongzilla
New
These reverse-piviters you saw most probably need more lean away from the ball...as you've been trying to say for the last 4 years (and more!).
Answer this: once you get the golfer to move their left shoulder well away from the ball ("lined up with their right hip")...how do you get that left shoulder back toward the ball? I bet you there will be golfers out there who ends up in a finish with their weight still on the right leg, leaning back.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
First of all, "lining the left shoulder up with the right hip" is something I would ONLY do in some cases.
But, you have a valid question, and I will answer it in a new blog. Promise.
Clearwater
New
Have we not solved the riddle of the R wrist flying wedge being a more important component in controlling low point????....Is it time to move on yet?
Hey, I'm brand new to the forum here and this is my first post.....so please be gentle. I just have a comment on this comparrison of Badds and Sergio. I tried to read all the posts on this thread but may have missed one or two so I'm sorry if my point has been made already.
I personally don't know if this is a fair comparrison being that it is only in 2 dimentions. Badds is making an exagerated, posed backswing and I think he hands are much farther behind him than Sergio's are. So to get them to appear like they are at the same point in the backswing I think Badds is in reality much farther along his arc than Sergio is. Sergio's swing is shorter, Badds left arm is much more across his chest.
From there my point is that once you have completed that much of your arc, and your hands are farther behind you, I think you have to move them back away from the target a little. Here is a clip of Tiger on youtube. If you put your mouse over the butt of his club at the top, you'll see that his hands move away from the target to start the downswing.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHcP6X7dEUo&feature=related[/media]
The longer the swing the more the hands have to travel back along the top part of your arc, away from the target. Tiger hitting that driver shows that the hands would move away from the target regardless of the type of pivot you use (I would not call his a leftward leaning pivot). Unlike a putting stroke which obviously occupies only the tiny bottom portion of the arc.
I guess I would say that a centered pivot or left leaning pivot certainly may cause your hands to have to move more pronoucedly away from the target to start the downswing, but that doesn't mean that the downswing arc still won't be narrower than the backswing arc.
So that's just my newbe opinion. And I must say that this place looks like one of the most knowledgable and passionate forums I've ever seen so I'm looking forward to hanging around.
[media]http://homepage.mac.com/brianmanzella/.Music/wrongmove.mp3[/media]
I personally don't know if this is a fair comparrison being that it is only in 2 dimentions. Badds is making an exagerated, posed backswing and I think he hands are much farther behind him than Sergio's are. So to get them to appear like they are at the same point in the backswing I think Badds is in reality much farther along his arc than Sergio is. Sergio's swing is shorter, Badds left arm is much more across his chest.
From there my point is that once you have completed that much of your arc, and your hands are farther behind you, I think you have to move them back away from the target a little. Here is a clip of Tiger on youtube. If you put your mouse over the butt of his club at the top, you'll see that his hands move away from the target to start the downswing.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHcP6X7dEUo&feature=related[/media]
The longer the swing the more the hands have to travel back along the top part of your arc, away from the target. Tiger hitting that driver shows that the hands would move away from the target regardless of the type of pivot you use (I would not call his a leftward leaning pivot). Unlike a putting stroke which obviously occupies only the tiny bottom portion of the arc.
I guess I would say that a centered pivot or left leaning pivot certainly may cause your hands to have to move more pronoucedly away from the target to start the downswing, but that doesn't mean that the downswing arc still won't be narrower than the backswing arc.
So that's just my newbe opinion. And I must say that this place looks like one of the most knowledgable and passionate forums I've ever seen so I'm looking forward to hanging around.
Last edited:
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Welcome.
bpw,
What I want the "take home" from this thread to be is very simple,
Here are my answers:
To move low point forward.
1. Move the Plane Line & Path more to the left.
2. Have the golfer learn to have the clubhead trail the hands to impact.
3. Get the golfer to move their weight OFF of the left foot early in the backswing, without over tilting their spines to the right.
Not.
1. Move ball back of middle.
2. Move weight more forward on backswing.
3. Lean more left at the top of the swing.
bpw,
What I want the "take home" from this thread to be is very simple,
"If a golfer had a low point that occurred too far back, what would be the first three things you would teach him to move it forward, and what would be the last three things you would ever consider?"
Here are my answers:
To move low point forward.
1. Move the Plane Line & Path more to the left.
2. Have the golfer learn to have the clubhead trail the hands to impact.
3. Get the golfer to move their weight OFF of the left foot early in the backswing, without over tilting their spines to the right.
Not.
1. Move ball back of middle.
2. Move weight more forward on backswing.
3. Lean more left at the top of the swing.
matt kluck
New
Ball Flight Laws
It could be first. I got it right on the PGA test because it was in the book but could not figure it out for the life of me while practically applying it.
LCT definitely will deliver a low point more forward quicker than the counterpoint discussion claims or it's contributors understand.
Keep up the good fight.
MK
It could be first. I got it right on the PGA test because it was in the book but could not figure it out for the life of me while practically applying it.
LCT definitely will deliver a low point more forward quicker than the counterpoint discussion claims or it's contributors understand.
Keep up the good fight.
MK
Brian Manzella
Administrator
PLANE LINE: The basic direction of thr swing
PATH: The basic direction of the strike
PATH: The basic direction of the strike
Brian Manzella
Administrator
No problem.
Fair enough.
Here is how:
Do I have to tell you the results?
Fair enough.
Here is how:
1. Have any golfer set-up.
Tell them to swing where they think they are aimed.
Look to see where the scrape/divot/low point is.
Tell them to stay in that same stance/alignment, and swing at a target 30 yards to the right.
Look to see where the scrape/divot/low point is.
Tell them stay in that same stance/alignment, and swing at a target 30 yards to the left.
Look to see where the scrape/divot/low point is.
Tell them to swing where they think they are aimed.
Look to see where the scrape/divot/low point is.
Tell them to stay in that same stance/alignment, and swing at a target 30 yards to the right.
Look to see where the scrape/divot/low point is.
Tell them stay in that same stance/alignment, and swing at a target 30 yards to the left.
Look to see where the scrape/divot/low point is.
Do I have to tell you the results?
2. Most poor players set the club very early, don't stress the shaft or their angles much at all in transition, and then release very early.
If you teach them them the a lagging clubhead takeaway—I have many ways to do that—on the first decent contact after learning, they will set the club later, have more loading, maybe even float lad a bit, and have a trailing clubhead and a low point that is drastically further forward.
The same effect will happen with anything that reduces throwaway. Some of those things that I use to accomplish that, are not what you would commonly see people teach to prevent throwaway, remember, I am a root cause stealth teacher. Working lots of problems backwards.
If you teach them them the a lagging clubhead takeaway—I have many ways to do that—on the first decent contact after learning, they will set the club later, have more loading, maybe even float lad a bit, and have a trailing clubhead and a low point that is drastically further forward.
The same effect will happen with anything that reduces throwaway. Some of those things that I use to accomplish that, are not what you would commonly see people teach to prevent throwaway, remember, I am a root cause stealth teacher. Working lots of problems backwards.
3. You can not get an average golfer to load the left foot from the top and stay there if they are already ON the left foot. Getting off the left foot early is a BIG KEY that will enable golfers to move left on the downswing.
Golfers ON their left foot, have NO WHERE TO GO, and often go the only place they can—to the right.
You give me a golfer with more left and more open hips, and I'll have a golfer who moves low point forward.
Golfers ON their left foot, have NO WHERE TO GO, and often go the only place they can—to the right.
You give me a golfer with more left and more open hips, and I'll have a golfer who moves low point forward.
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