Answered the same question on page 3.
BLOG: The Biggest Lie Ever Told in Golf Instruction History
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Answered the same question on page 3.
Thanks Kevin.
sorry, still off topic
k, see what you're saying (brian probably has pic #5
...guess where i was going was that he seems "twistaway" in the transition/downswing to get on top of the sweetspot...i think hogan may have done this too...
-hcw
k, see what you're saying (brian probably has pic #5
...guess where i was going was that he seems "twistaway" in the transition/downswing to get on top of the sweetspot...i think hogan may have done this too...-hcw
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
k, see what you're saying (brian probably has pic #5
-hcw
He turns the sweetspot down very late in the downswing. Again, one way to make it easier to move low point forward.
Steve Greffen
New
Isn't it hard to say this or contradict it because the backswing alone will not determine what you do with the downswing. You could make a Manzella like pivot around the base of your neck and still have low point behind the ball just as you could if you stayed centered. Both require you to do something else on the downswing to ensure the low point in front of the ball.
P & B do lay out things to do on the downswing to get the low point forward and they also address the club face in relation to the path so as to address slicers or hookers of the ball. I also think that they have been very successful with a handful of players that can do their very specific swing components, but have had some tour players try their method and not succeed (and a lot of amateurs too!).
The success with these tour players drew me to their system initially and what I got out of it was A. Homer Kelley (Bought the Golfing Machine) B. Ben Doyle (research of Homer gave lead me to him) and C. Brian Manzella (Watched all the You Tube videos that greatly helped on Homer's visuals and then bought Flipper and NSA)
Where Manzella's wisdom and approach have been more helpful (to me and eventually many others) is that there is not one model to work off of (which makes more sense in TGM philosophy) like whats good for one may not be good for another. The other stark difference of S & T and a Manzella motion is in the pivot and I think many more people (myself included) are going to be able to make the Manzella type pivot work.
To sum it up with a Manzella/Hall ish statement. Don't change your pivot or plane of your swing to fix your slice/hook etc. FIX YOUR BLOODY FACE!! (Fill in a Martin Hall accent on the bold face and it works!)
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Just for the record, there are several "Manzella Pivots."
Thanks for you comments, and very nice to have you around these parts, Bolt.
Any relation to Tommy or Usian?
Steve Greffen
New
Yes and I was referring to the pivot you mention around the base of the neck. Of course having several Pivots also boldens my point on not having only one way to do something. Re your model in NSA that you have to change what you have taught him to do to what you are trying to illustrate a slicer should do to correct his slice.
(Hopefully he didn't have the hooks for too long after his appearance in the video!! HA HA!)
No, no relation and thanks, good to be around these parts.
James Marshall (Hogan1953)
New member
[media]http://homepage.mac.com/brianmanzella/.Music/wrongmove.mp3[/media]
Brian,
It seems to me that there is a line at the top of the backswing, maybe we could call it a point of equilibrium, that if crossed by the golfer to the left then the body's balance aparatus just won't let you go further left in the downswing and you end up doing what you described with the Baddeley pivot above left, wider downswing arc, little left shoulder travel, backing up etc. Unorthodox moves which if done with the ball would soon have him back at Q-school.
However, if I set up in an orthodox fashion I personally don't cross that line if I simply turn round the base of neck and my belt buckle and I am still able to allow my left shoulder to travel far enough left in the downswing to get where it needs to get to at impact, maybe one shoulder closer to the target with an iron.
From my study of all the swings of yourself that you have posted on the site your left ear (head) ends the backswing if not where it was at address, pretty damn close to it, even having shifted a little right early in the backswing.
So what I would really like to know is what you consider this early rightward move adds to your ability to do in the downswing. Is it precisely greater left shoulder travel and better control of low point, or does it facilitate mass displacement in the downswing , is it an alignment thing or what?
Does this move add to the generation of energy in the start-down because if I understand it correctly the energy comes from the rotation of the body centres, the slight downward move in the transition with an accompanying upward move at impact or just before and the judicious involvement of the right arm?
This forum member doesn't seem to have any trouble moving his left shoulder left with what could be described as a "centred pivot".
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9zc-Gr1wZU[/media]
Appreciate any comments.
Yours,
James
Brian Manzella
Administrator
However, if I set up in an orthodox fashion I personally don't cross that line if I simply turn round the base of neck and my belt buckle and I am still able to allow my left shoulder to travel far enough left in the downswing to get where it needs to get to at impact, maybe one shoulder closer to the target with an iron. [/quote]
I'd rather you turned around the "point bewteen your shoulder sockets."
But, let's go on...
Ah, the "counterfall."
Hit it about 10 yards farther in the air with a 6-iron and maybe 15-20 with a Driver.
More juice.
Period.
Funny thing, I am doing less counterfall to have less forward lean these days, in a new pattern experiment.
Code Name: No-Hinge Hinge.
Yes.
If you could run up to the ball, ala "Happy Gilmore," you could hit it much further. Patty Harrington uses this as a training exercise.
Shifting OFF OF THE LEFT FOOT EARLY is something that is in almost every pattern I teach. Not all, but most.
It does help some folks draw better liones as well, so, I huess, it is ALSO AN "alignment thing."
Sounds like a sales pitch.
See "Happy Gilmore."
Thank God for 6 degree/3d machine machines.
David makes a good pass I it.
Kinda Matrix Soft Fade-ish. Nice.
Not what I'd do with a Peter Finch though.
I sure hope you aren't missing the point and the thesis:
Is the BEST and MAYBE ONLY way to move a HACKER'S "LOW POINT" forward, with a leftward leaning., or centered pivot?
Hell no, in my very experienced, researched, well thought out, years on the line, real world opinion.
This thread is not about whether David Orr's swing, or anyone else's pet pattern is a valid good pattern that might be THE BEST pattern for some folks.
No question in my mind that David's would be.
One mo time:
BRAIN MANZELLA'S THREAD/BLOG THESIS:
Is the BEST and MAYBE ONLY way to move a HACKER'S "LOW POINT" forward, with a leftward leaning., or centered pivot?
Hell no!
Amen Corner
New
off topic perhaps
the thread is
The Biggest Lie Ever Told in Golf Instruction History
Is it the combination of "the pivot issue" with the moving of the lowpoint that you think it is the "biggest lie ever told"
the thread is
The Biggest Lie Ever Told in Golf Instruction History
Is it the combination of "the pivot issue" with the moving of the lowpoint that you think it is the "biggest lie ever told"
Brian Manzella
Administrator
So Sorry...
I need to go back and take some more writing classes:
As per my last previous post and the thread starter blog:
The "Biggest Lie Ever Told in GOLF INSTRUCTION History"
is:
That the BEST and MAYBE ONLY way to move a HACKER'S or average golfer's "LOW POINT" forward, is with a leftward leaning, or centered pivot.
Got it?
Whew.
I need to go back and take some more writing classes:
As per my last previous post and the thread starter blog:
The "Biggest Lie Ever Told in GOLF INSTRUCTION History"
is:
That the BEST and MAYBE ONLY way to move a HACKER'S or average golfer's "LOW POINT" forward, is with a leftward leaning, or centered pivot.
Got it?
Whew.
huestisc
New
OK Brian, let's turn this around a little bit...I think you have explained pretty well why you think the "left lean" pivot is inferior, and it makes sense to me.
In which cases or patterns would you recommend NOT shifting off the left foot early, and why would this be beneficial?
Also, I would love to hear more about Soft Fade....After you de-hooked me with NHA, we tried moving to a Soft Draw, but it didn't quite click for me and you mentioned I could be a candidate for Soft Fade....how is that pattern coming along? Do you have it more or less defined now? Are you teaching it much? ETA for a video?
Clay
Brian Manzella
Administrator
The second biggest lie ever told in golf instruction history.
James Marshall (Hogan1953)
New member
Brian,
Thanks very much for your comments, always appreciated. The pivot demonstrated in the Baddeley stills is obviously not going to help anyone to do anything positive in the downswing. It's one of number of poor photos which I've seen promoting S&T and seems to bear little resemblance to what their players actually do. Anyway that's another story.
I was genuinely interested to read what you consider to be the advantages of a rightward move early in the backswing helps you to do in the downswing, thank you for that.
Certainly no sales pitch involved, simply information I've learnt from you and Mandrin in the last 3 years.
It would seem to me that independent of the pivot either centred or your preferred pattern, (leaning left pivots are obviously not helpful) one of the major factors in moving low point left seems to me to be increasing the amount of "carry" in the downswing, as you called it a few days ago in another thread, by increasing the amount of rotation of the lower and upper body and at the same time also resisting the temptation to overaccelerate with the hands at start-down.
With the club in the hands it appears natural for many beginner golfers or even experienced golfers to want to try to hit more with hands than the body thus producing the premature alignment of shaft and left arm.
Yours,
James
Thanks very much for your comments, always appreciated. The pivot demonstrated in the Baddeley stills is obviously not going to help anyone to do anything positive in the downswing. It's one of number of poor photos which I've seen promoting S&T and seems to bear little resemblance to what their players actually do. Anyway that's another story.
I was genuinely interested to read what you consider to be the advantages of a rightward move early in the backswing helps you to do in the downswing, thank you for that.
Certainly no sales pitch involved, simply information I've learnt from you and Mandrin in the last 3 years.
It would seem to me that independent of the pivot either centred or your preferred pattern, (leaning left pivots are obviously not helpful) one of the major factors in moving low point left seems to me to be increasing the amount of "carry" in the downswing, as you called it a few days ago in another thread, by increasing the amount of rotation of the lower and upper body and at the same time also resisting the temptation to overaccelerate with the hands at start-down.
With the club in the hands it appears natural for many beginner golfers or even experienced golfers to want to try to hit more with hands than the body thus producing the premature alignment of shaft and left arm.
Yours,
James
birdie_man
New
I've got to read this thread.
A Doozie.
Beheamoth.
A Doozie.
Beheamoth.
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