BLOG: The Biggest Lie Ever Told in Golf Instruction History

[jimmyt]

Fair enough.

Here is how:

1. Have any golfer set-up.

Tell them to swing where they think they are aimed.

Look to see where the scrape/divot/low point is.

Tell them to stay in that same stance/alignment, and swing at a target 30 yards to the right.

Look to see where the scrape/divot/low point is.

Tell them stay in that same stance/alignment, and swing at a target 30 yards to the left.

Look to see where the scrape/divot/low point is.​

Do I have to tell you the results?

2. Most poor players set the club very early, don't stress the shaft or their angles much at all in transition, and then release very early.

If you teach them them the a lagging clubhead takeaway—I have many ways to do that—on the first decent contact after learning, they will set the club later, have more loading, maybe even float lad a bit, and have a trailing clubhead and a low point that is drastically further forward.

The same effect will happen with anything that reduces throwaway. Some of those things that I use to accomplish that, are not what you would commonly see people teach to prevent throwaway, remember, I am a root cause stealth teacher. Working lots of problems backwards.​

3. You can not get an average golfer to load the left foot from the top and stay there if they are already ON the left foot. Getting off the left foot early is a BIG KEY that will enable golfers to move left on the downswing.

Golfers ON their left foot, have NO WHERE TO GO, and often go the only place they can—to the right.

You give me a golfer with more left and more open hips, and I'll have a golfer who moves low point forward.
​

I have never heard you describe it in exactly those terms before.....just became crystal clear.....

Thanks Brian

 

[pieman]

same for me brian. i'm sorry to ask this as it's prob been answered before, but while swinging at a target that far left, wouldn't you hit the ball left too?

 

[Kevin Shields]

Pieman, thats just to demonstrate moving low point. You can make adjustments to the face and pivot tilts for ball flight.

 

[pieman]

thanks kevin. looks like a trip to the range tomorrow. i think i'm seeing the light though.

 

[Clearwater]

Ok...I understand your thinking, but...

Fair enough.

Here is how:

1. Have any golfer set-up.

Tell them to swing where they think they are aimed.

Look to see where the scrape/divot/low point is.

Tell them to stay in that same stance/alignment, and swing at a target 30 yards to the right.

Look to see where the scrape/divot/low point is.

Tell them stay in that same stance/alignment, and swing at a target 30 yards to the left.

Look to see where the scrape/divot/low point is.​

Do I have to tell you the results?

2. Most poor players set the club very early, don't stress the shaft or their angles much at all in transition, and then release very early.

If you teach them them the a lagging clubhead takeaway—I have many ways to do that—on the first decent contact after learning, they will set the club later, have more loading, maybe even float lad a bit, and have a trailing clubhead and a low point that is drastically further forward.

The same effect will happen with anything that reduces throwaway. Some of those things that I use to accomplish that, are not what you would commonly see people teach to prevent throwaway, remember, I am a root cause stealth teacher. Working lots of problems backwards.​

3. You can not get an average golfer to load the left foot from the top and stay there if they are already ON the left foot. Getting off the left foot early is a BIG KEY that will enable golfers to move left on the downswing.

Golfers ON their left foot, have NO WHERE TO GO, and often go the only place they can—to the right.

You give me a golfer with more left and more open hips, and I'll have a golfer who moves low point forward.
​

Fair enough as well,

I completely agree with point #2. In fact, I think throwaway should be point #1!!!

I agree that the experiment in point #1 will usually yield those results, but I'm not teaching anyone to swing left until they need it. How about less spine tilt at impact instead of...swinging left and possibly just backing the hips up in the downswing to do it? I'm going with a correct amount of spine tilt as a more practical point.

With your point #3...although there is rarely if ever a need to have someone move more than slightly left during their backswing, it would still be possible to incrementally move more weight left in the downswing without a true reverse pivot. It absolutley can be done. I know, I know you don't believe me, but it can.

My list:
Throwaway, weight forward, spine tilt

Ok Brian...Go ahead...tell me I suck at life

 

[Brian Manzella]

Suck at life?

Ok Brian...Go ahead...tell me I suck at life

When the heck have I ever said anything like that?

 

[Clearwater]

you never have of course

Ever feel like you are about to be slapped and need to find something big to hide behind?

 

[James Marshall (Hogan1953)]

Fair enough.

Here is how:

1. Have any golfer set-up.

Tell them to swing where they think they are aimed.

Look to see where the scrape/divot/low point is.

Tell them to stay in that same stance/alignment, and swing at a target 30 yards to the right.

Look to see where the scrape/divot/low point is.

Tell them stay in that same stance/alignment, and swing at a target 30 yards to the left.

Look to see where the scrape/divot/low point is.
​

Do I have to tell you the results?

2. Most poor players set the club very early, don't stress the shaft or their angles much at all in transition, and then release very early.

If you teach them them the a lagging clubhead takeaway—I have many ways to do that—on the first decent contact after learning, they will set the club later, have more loading, maybe even float lad a bit, and have a trailing clubhead and a low point that is drastically further forward.

The same effect will happen with anything that reduces throwaway. Some of those things that I use to accomplish that, are not what you would commonly see people teach to prevent throwaway, remember, I am a root cause stealth teacher. Working lots of problems backwards.
​

3. You can not get an average golfer to load the left foot from the top and stay there if they are already ON the left foot. Getting off the left foot early is a BIG KEY that will enable golfers to move left on the downswing.

Golfers ON their left foot, have NO WHERE TO GO, and often go the only place they can—to the right.

You give me a golfer with more left and more open hips, and I'll have a golfer who moves low point forward.
​

Brian,

I think this post helps us to get to the nub of the problem of moving low point left, thank you. As you've stated elsewhere, the average amateur doesn't have enough "carry" by which I understand he/she doesn't rotate the hips and the trunk sufficiently in the downswing to be able to transport their hands far enough left to get to where they need to get to at impact. This exercise demonstrates clearly to the student that by turning more they can move low point forward, change the angle of attack and their swing path. I look fwd to trying it out with my students.

James

 

[Brian Manzella]

Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

I'm not teaching anyone to swing left until they need it.

Really?

Path-to-clubface relationships to each other, and to the body, are the utmost of importance in fixing golf swings.

The amount of good players who swing too far inside-out is astronomical.

The amount of really poor players who have a low point that is behind the ball, and swing "low-to-high" or below the plane to above if you will, is astronomical.

Sometimes the plane line and path have to be moved even further left then you might see when drawing lines, to rectify the path-to-clubface relationships to each other, and to the body. Then you have simple realign next-move instead of an overhaul.

How about less spine tilt at impact instead of...swinging left and possibly just backing the hips up in the downswing to do it? I'm going with a correct amount of spine tilt as a more practical point.

Don't tell me you are one of those folks who think "spine tilt = inside-out" too?

What if you have a four inches of hip travel toward the left heel and the hips are 50° open and the shoulders are 25° open, all with 40° of "Axis tilt"?

Is that the same: as two inches of hip travel toward the left heel and the hips are 30° open and the shoulders are 5° open, with the same 40° of "Axis tilt"?

Hell no it isn't the same.

How about either of those two scenarios with someone with pitch elbow instead of punch, or push?

What about a Turned Shoulder Plane downswing and those now six scenarios?

What about someone hitting a draw or a cut?

Now we have eighteen different cases.

How about laid off at the top or across-the-line?

54.

In all of those cases, you just run to reduction in axis tilt?

Really?

With your point #3...although there is rarely if ever a need to have someone move more than slightly left during their backswing, it would still be possible to incrementally move more weight left in the downswing without a true reverse pivot. It absolutley can be done. I know, I know you don't believe me, but it can.

No kidding?

You can incrementally move more weight left in the downswing without a true reverse pivot?

Really?

You guys think I am ripping on your stuff, but, like I have said about 10 times already, I have a steeper shoulder turn, flatter arm swing pattern as well, so good for ya'll.

I am saying that fixing low point is a lot easier than hanging left.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Brian,

I think this post helps us to get to the nub of the problem of moving low point left, thank you. As you've stated elsewhere, the average amateur doesn't have enough "carry" by which I understand he/she doesn't rotate the hips and the trunk sufficiently in the downswing to be able to transport their hands far enough left to get to where they need to get to at impact. This exercise demonstrates clearly to the student that by turning more they can move low point forward, change the angle of attack and their swing path. I look fwd to trying it out with my students.

James

It is a simple as pie.

 

[golfspike]

Really?

Path-to-clubface relationships to each other, and to the body, are the utmost of importance in fixing golf swings.

The amount of good players who swing too far inside-out is astronomical.

The amount of really poor players who have a low point that is behind the ball, and swing "low-to-high" or below the plane to above if you will, is astronomical.

Sometimes the plane line and path have to be moved even further left then you might see when drawing lines, to rectify the path-to-clubface relationships to each other, and to the body. Then you have simple realign next-move instead of an overhaul.




Don't tell me you are one of those folks who think "spine tilt = inside-out" too?

What if you have a four inches of hip travel toward the left heel and the hips are 50° open and the shoulders are 25° open, all with 40° of "Axis tilt"?

Is that the same: as two inches of hip travel toward the left heel and the hips are 30° open and the shoulders are 5° open, with the same 40° of "Axis tilt"?

Hell no it isn't the same.

How about either of those two scenarios with someone with pitch elbow instead of punch, or push?

What about a Turned Shoulder Plane downswing and those now six scenarios?

What about someone hitting a draw or a cut?

Now we have eighteen different cases.

How about laid off at the top or across-the-line?

54.

In all of those cases, you just run to reduction in axis tilt?

Really?



No kidding?

You can incrementally move more weight left in the downswing without a true reverse pivot?

Really?

You guys think I am ripping on your stuff, but, like I have said about 10 times already, I have a steeper shoulder turn, flatter arm swing pattern as well, so good for ya'll.

I am saying that fixing low point is a lot easier than hanging left.

Mr Manzella, there are folks who are claiming that Ben Hogan/Sam Snead used a rotated shoulder turn/ steepened the shoulders in transition and were leaning left etc etc..tailbone release

Is this True or False.

 

[Steve Greffen]

Mr Manzella there are folks who are claiming that Ben Hogan/Sam Snead used a rotated shoulder turn/ steepened the shoulders in transition and were leaning left etc etc..tailbone release

Yeah my research of this that the way they say you can stay left without reversing on the downswing is to add axis tilt. Just trying this myself, I found it hard to get my body to do this. They say that you should try to get your tuck your butt under the torso while keeping your arms straight in the finish. I hit a number of fat shots that hooked on the range on mats that I didnt quite understand at the time (thought I was doing it wrong), but I think it is considerably harder to move low point forward this way than it is by a standard pivot (around the base of your neck) and maybe a little LCT.

Wait this is what this whole blog is about isnt it?? Ten pages into the thread and the answer is still the same. (I know how Brian must feel!!!)

 

[Brian Manzella]

Mr Manzella, there are folks who are claiming that Ben Hogan/Sam Snead used a rotated shoulder turn/ steepened the shoulders in transition and were leaning left etc etc..tailbone release

Is this True or False.

You can look at swings 100000000000s of ways.

Some folks have one way to classify, some another.

If someone takes the time like I do, to draw very precise lines, and wants me to evaluate what they think it shows, I'd be happy to.

But there is no doubt that a rotated shoulder turn START DOWN is something that works in the right spot.

Like my "baby fade/bady draw" (formerly called "Soft Fade") pattern

 

[Clearwater]

didn't mean to get you all worked up...

Path-to-clubface relationships to each other, and to the body, are the utmost of importance in fixing golf swings.

The amount of good players who swing too far inside-out is astronomical.

The amount of really poor players who have a low point that is behind the ball, and swing "low-to-high" or below the plane to above if you will, is astronomical.

Sometimes the plane line and path have to be moved even further left then you might see when drawing lines, to rectify the path-to-clubface relationships to each other, and to the body. Then you have simple realign next-move instead of an overhaul.

"I'm not teaching anyone to swing left until they need it." Agreed, in all accounts they would then HAVE to or NEED to learn how to swing left and not just a little. Also, the number of good players that are too far in-out is far far far beyond astronomical.

Don't tell me you are one of those folks who think "spine tilt = inside-out" too?

No. That would be asinine. Spine tilt = NOTHING DEFINITIVE.

What if you have a four inches of hip travel toward the left heel and the hips are 50° open and the shoulders are 25° open, all with 40° of "Axis tilt"?

Is that the same: as two inches of hip travel toward the left heel and the hips are 30° open and the shoulders are 5° open, with the same 40° of "Axis tilt"?

They are not the same, but in both instances low point moves forward with less axis tilt.

How about either of those two scenarios with someone with pitch elbow instead of punch, or push?

What about a Turned Shoulder Plane downswing and those now six scenarios?

What about someone hitting a draw or a cut?

Now we have eighteen different cases.

How about laid off at the top or across-the-line?

In all of those cases, you just run to reduction in axis tilt?

Really?

No. Then I would start with throwaway and weight forward unless you want to cut it. Axis tilt and then...release of PA1.

You guys think I am ripping on your stuff, but, like I have said about 10 times already, I have a steeper shoulder turn, flatter arm swing pattern as well, so good for ya'll.

I know you aren't ripping on this stuff! You've said many times that you like many things about many patterns. I just don't agree that your 3rd point of moving off your left foot early in the backswing being on your list ahead of moving forward on the downswing. That's all.

I am saying that fixing low point is a lot easier than hanging left.

Agreed.

 

[birdie_man]

I didn't get the 3rd point at first either.

All I can figure is that he must be talking about people who already have bad pivots though. (reverse pivots)

 

[pecky987]

I didn't get the 3rd point at first either.

All I can figure is that he must be talking about people who already have bad pivots though. (reverse pivots)

if you get the weight OFF the left foot, you can put it BACK ON the left foot in the transition, stress the shaft better, get a "narrower" hand path in the downswing and therefore move the lowpoint further forward

 

[Brian Manzella]

if you get the weight OFF the left foot, you can put it BACK ON the left foot in the transition, stress the shaft better, get a "narrower" hand path in the downswing and therefore move the lowpoint further forward

The fact that their are Golf Instructors out there, who don't understand this, is scary for the golf business.

 

[pecky987]

The fact that their are Golf Instructors out there, who don't understand this, is scary for the golf business.

and the fact that there are people who aren't instructors who do, is upsetting

 

[ej20]

I think the point has been missed entirely on the stack and tilt.

All other things being equal,if done correctly,it will move low point forward.

A hacker with a monster cast that bottoms out 4 inches behind the ball will now bottom out one inch behind.He still hasn't fixed his throwaway but he now hits the ball heavy rather than duff.

A low marker that perhaps bottoms out one inch in front of the ball will now move that forward another couple of inches.He will also reduce the possibility of hitting it fat.

My opinion is that it's a valid pattern but it doesn't fix swing flaws.

 

[birdie_man]

if you get the weight OFF the left foot, you can put it BACK ON the left foot in the transition, stress the shaft better, get a "narrower" hand path in the downswing and therefore move the lowpoint further forward

I gotcha pecky. I just suspected he must mostly mean reverse-pivoters cause I can take a pretty mean divot well ahead (like "The Divot Drill") starting with my weight well on the left foot and making no extra effort to move it off.

I've never tested but I dunno if I could equal that moving more weight off the left foot.

I don't have reverse-pivot problems though. Even with about as much weight on my left foot as possible I suspect my torso still leans away from target. Never videoed it but I would be surprised if it leaned toward at all, never mind to any significant degree.

(will video hopefully tomorrow)