Clarification

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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
A couple, actually more than a couple, of things Brian teaches are being grossly misrepresented in places that nobody actually reads, but I thought it was interesting enough to address. Also, it might help someone.

I'm going to attempt to explain, from a teachers perspective, how wedding ring up finish, which for the record, I've never been a huge fan of, (but works!) can result in a "low rate of closure " swing.

First off, it is done with a neutral grip. This is important. A player trying to employ this move can't cheat with a strong grip.
Second, if you do enough to the point where you're hands actually cross over before impact the club head will get to the ball before everything else and you'll hit it left of left. (Sometimes a good thing for the chronic slicer) This rarely happens btw.

Third, slicers are massive non releasers or reverse rollers or hangers on thru impact with vertical shafts so a little post impact roll keeps the shaft on plane and "swinging".

So When Brian says wedding ring up often produces a low rate of closure type swing he means what he says. I've seen it a number of times. On the way to learning these moves a lot of players end right in the middle where they aren't lagging the face open, get it turned down earlier and just let it go thru impact, resulting in a very straight shot.

Others take the whole pill, get some rolled hooks, and are backed off accordingly. But I haven't seen any neutral grip full roll hooks in a long time, if ever. Because, learning to turn it down earlier results in less back up and opening later which should reduce any need to flip it or try to close it later. People who do this, like Brian said, get more straight shots or even fades.

But I digress. Now that the season is winding down, its a good time to rev up the questions again. If there's anything people don't understand, start a thread or ask. I certainly have a little extra time nowadays until the winter lessons start firing up again.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Also, I need some clarification as well. I read from the Trackman haters that people will learn to change numbers the "wrong" way, or with bad moves. Would someone please explain what these bad moves are? And how anyone would get perfect Trackman impact numbers the wrong way??
 
Along with what Kevin said above there is The Brian Manzella Golf Show episode 6
that contains some really good pivot information. Easy to understand information for anyone
trying to figure out if their pivot matches up with their other swing components.
 

ZAP

New
What impressed me the most in my first lesson with Brian was when he had me try something to get my VSP numbers up and when it changed one of the other numbers he decided to try something else. I think Brian is such a "big picture" teacher in terms of the numbers that some people really cannot wrap their heads around the stuff.
 
everything that's required for a wedding ring up type swing is so different to the 'ideas about release' type swing.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
As the second best player in my stable (no offense), perhaps the ULTIMATE clarification is a quick run through YOUR PATTERN Kevin—the one we actually try to get you to do. The one you won 4 tournaments in a row with, the one you missed qualifying for MAJOR by one shot with, the one that you will play in PGA TOUR events with next year.

Simple is best.....
 
As the second best player in my stable (no offense), perhaps the ULTIMATE clarification is a quick run through YOUR PATTERN Kevin—the one we actually try to get you to do. The one you won 4 tournaments in a row with, the one you missed qualifying for MAJOR by one shot with, the one that you will play in PGA TOUR events with next year.

Simple is best.....

In golf as in business. KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid. (No offense implied.) One would be surprised as to how appropriate this is for everything.
 
Tumble? Wedding Ring Up? Early Closing?

Personally, I'm still trying to think my way through all this stuff. For one thing, it seems like different teachers have different terminology for describing the same thing.

For example, some argue that the best ballstrikers aggressively close the face early beginning four or five feet prior to impact, resulting in an impact that is more stable. But isn't a golfer who "tumbles" the club a la Sergio Garcia essentially doing the same thing? Because it sure seems to me that if a golfer is steepening the shaft during the second half of the downswing, then he's also aggressively closing the clubface. So if there are critical differences between "the tumble" and "closing early," what are they?

Second, if a golfer is trying to execute "wedding right up," couldn't that also result in early closing of the clubface during the second half of the downswing? If not, why not? If there are critical differences between "wedding ring up" and "closing early," what are they?
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Well......the pattern I use now is almost complete. During the PNC I was having severe under turning problems which led to massive alignment issues. There was some decent stuff but it isn't close to what I finished the season with.

From a neutral set up, I try to make a belly putter type takeaway (one piece) with no face rotation. Because it works best for me, I try to rotate the face to the plane late in the backswing while absolutely making a full shoulder turn. My first move down is a separation of the legs while falling on my left foot. At the same time I try to back my hands away from the target while resisting any down loading. While my hands are going toward my right leg or the ground, I focus on going up and back with the left side while going inward with the left and releasing the right wrist to a very bent left wrist finish.

I work on these things totally separate from one another so I can take one or two thoughts to the course. Lately it's been "turn and open" and "fall and hit it on the toe" for hand path. If anyone thinks I'm being coy or over analytical, I apologize. That's exactly what I try to do and while it sounds like a lot, you'd be surprised how much you can digest if you truly understand the pattern.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Personally, I'm still trying to think my way through all this stuff. For one thing, it seems like different teachers have different terminology for describing the same thing.

For example, some argue that the best ballstrikers aggressively close the face early beginning four or five feet prior to impact, resulting in an impact that is more stable. But isn't a golfer who "tumbles" the club a la Sergio Garcia essentially doing the same thing? Because it sure seems to me that if a golfer is steepening the shaft during the second half of the downswing, then he's also aggressively closing the clubface. So if there are critical differences between "the tumble" and "closing early," what are they?

Second, if a golfer is trying to execute "wedding right up," couldn't that also result in early closing of the clubface during the second half of the downswing? If not, why not? If there are critical differences between "wedding ring up" and "closing early," what are they?

Did you read the first post in this thread about wedding ring up?
Early closing is not for everyone. The feel of the toe off the plane is very scary for some. Despite what some say, it is perfectly fine to keep the clubface laying on the plane later if you have a good grip, good hand path and the forces on the handle going the right way.

Describing it as early supinating and then driving and holding a square, stable face sounds like someone who is guessing IMO.
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
As the second best player in my stable (no offense), perhaps the ULTIMATE clarification is a quick run through YOUR PATTERN Kevin—the one we actually try to get you to do. The one you won 4 tournaments in a row with, the one you missed qualifying for MAJOR by one shot with, the one that you will play in PGA TOUR events with next year.

Simple is best.....

Simple would be...."open it up, tumble it closed"
 
Thanks for the reply, Kevin. Personally, I'm definitely "just guessing." It's still fun to sift my way through this stuff about the release, though. Since I haven't followed everything closely, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "perfectly fine to keep the clubface laying on the plane later....." So I'll just assume you're saying that on the downswing, it's fine to have a vertical clubface when it reaches the same height as the hands.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Thanks for the reply, Kevin. Personally, I'm definitely "just guessing." It's still fun to sift my way through this stuff about the release, though. Since I haven't followed everything closely, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "perfectly fine to keep the clubface laying on the plane later....." So I'll just assume you're saying that on the downswing, it's fine to have a vertical clubface when it reaches the same height as the hands.

I wasn't referring to you by the way:). And not really about hand height. It's just not swing cancer to keep the clubface open later into the downswing if you have a predictable, sound hand path to steepen and close the face. If you're enjoying success with your strong grip and so forth, that's great. It's all about personal needs and what each player can or cannot do. That said, I'd love to see your Trackman numbers......yes, Trackman numbers.
 
Kevin, do you mind sharing a little more about the under turning and major alignment issues? There are times when I have no idea where I'm aiming, I think it's right edge of fairway only to find out it's the next fairway over. I feel all twisted at times. With the driver it's usually too far right and with the irons, too far left....???
 
I wasn't referring to you by the way:). And not really about hand height. It's just not swing cancer to keep the clubface open later into the downswing if you have a predictable, sound hand path to steepen and close the face. If you're enjoying success with your strong grip and so forth, that's great. It's all about personal needs and what each player can or cannot do. That said, I'd love to see your Trackman numbers......yes, Trackman numbers.

I'd love to get my Trackman numbers too but the only Trackman I know of in my area is at Barton Creek in Austin. And I think I'd have to spend $100+ on a lesson or something to get those readings. Does anyone here know of anyone else with Trackman in the Austin area?
 

lia41985

New member
One would guess that someone who's under turning tries to get the appropriate hand path depth by pre-setting it via alignment. This will oc course lead to other issues and is therefore a "band aid" Kevin's ripped off.

Kevin, I love hearing your thoughts. It's awesome to hear such a great player verbalize all of this stuff.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
For example, some argue that the best ballstrikers aggressively close the face early beginning four or five feet prior to impact, resulting in an impact that is more stable. But isn't a golfer who "tumbles" the club a la Sergio Garcia essentially doing the same thing?

Yes.

Second, if a golfer is trying to execute "wedding right up," couldn't that also result in early closing of the clubface during the second half of the downswing? If not, why not? If there are critical differences between "wedding ring up" and "closing early," what are they?

You could wind up with a later closing with wedding ring up.

I can fade the ball all day with wedding ring up, so I guess that means not too much closed, eh?



Kevin, I love hearing your thoughts. It's awesome to hear such a great player verbalize all of this stuff.


There are a lot of really good players in the Manzella Academy network. Kevin and Tom Bartlett being the best as professionals, and Mike Finney as an amateur.

There is just no way a hacker will ever know what they know about what really works when the heat is on.

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/NHipzGL4dwM?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I listened to DT give a young aspiring Tour Pro a long telephone talk this year about what to do work on to get from point A to point B, and I'll tell ya, I was pure gold.
 
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