Clarification
- Thread starter Kevin Shields
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Cuban went to my high school....if he only would buy the Pirates.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
threadjack
MLB Owners don't want him in the club, he was in the running for purchasing the Cubs and obviously had the money to do so but eventually found out the other owners wouldn't let it happen.
jimmyt
New
Im a life long cub fan, and I was hoping he would get the team. I will end this threadjack with that. My opinion, I'm 54 years old, one disappointment season after season.
mgranato
New
Well done, this one.
I've been wanting to do a topic like this for a few weeks.One of the inspirations coming from the annual "why Trackman/Flightscope is bad" logic. And like most long running poorly written sequels, the logic needed to "make it work" gets farther and farther out there.
The logic: since golf is played on a course, what possible good is it to learn a zeroed swing on the range.
Makes sense, right?
Looking for a fresh perspective, I started looking at how other professionals performing physically demanding complex actions train - elite military units. A ton of research did not yield one documented case of a battle waged on/in a shooting range. Nor could I find a documented battle waged by ruthlessly cunning paper targets. Which is odd because our SEALs (and other tier 1 units) spend a seemingly (based on the above logic) insane and useless amount of time engaging such targets, and wait for it... zeroing their weapons on the range. A retired member of DEVGRU has said they go through more 9mm rounds (just pistol rounds) in one year than the entire Marine Corp shoots across all calibers together over the same time period. The reason given behind this obviously flawed (based on the above logic) obsession to practice in a "fake" setting on "fake" targets to the point that the complex actions of drawing, moving, assessing, and double tapping with lethal efficiency and speed is to inoculate complicated movements against the effects of stress. Inoculation by way of the unforgiving standards of evaluation and verification. Once an expert level of marksmanship is reach on the range with paper targets, more stresses are introduced and things get "more real". As the ratcheting continues, the baseline of standards and zeros ingrained on the flat range with flat targets remain for all subsequent training.
Granted, zeroing a 7 iron on a range is far more difficult than what SEALs are asked to do. Still I think we can learn a bit about their training to stringent standards. There's a myth (based on the above logic) espoused by such warriors that if you train to perfection when it's not real, when it is for real, your skill will "degrade" to just devastating lethality.
No matter the level of skill required, it will always degrade under stress. The question is do you want your degrading to begin from the baseline of steering and holding, from false notions of RoC based on Zupruder quality videos, from the wisdom of double digit cappers forged on a flat range shooting at who knows what target? Or do you want the degrading to start from the unbiased, precisely clear standard of zero based on a verifiably measured target?
Aside from the silly (based on the above logic) idea of training to standards higher than what happens when it "gets real", the other so called benefit of such training where every bullet's path is measured and graded to 1" over every 100 yards (1 MOA), the SEAL can also decide which method tweaks and equipment alterations best help him hone and maintain his skills. Finding (and meticulously verifying) what works for them individually is a critical part of this useless (based on the above logic) process. The same DEVGRU (SEAL Team 6) operator says you can spot a Team when you see a group of guys who look different, dress different, carry different gear, but are working flawlessly together to accomplish the same goal. Kind of the opposite of a "1 way is best" "1 size fits all" method.
Once you break it down, it's a wonder any of our warrior elite are able to hit anything when it counts. What with all that wasted time spent on flat unrealistic ranges. In fact, if the opportunity ever presents itself, I strongly encourage anyone (using the above logic) to make it a point to tell these misguided soldiers just how wrong they are. Experts love it when amateurs share their wisdom.
So when you read something like... "What good is that? What good is it to learn how to "zero out" a swing on range mats when rapid firing 100 balls? How does that translate to better golf scores?", just understand that some are out their doing their best "keeping it real" for the cameras...
while thankfully others understand the value of zeroing out on the range for better scores WHEN IT COUNTS...
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Mike Richardson
New
Thanks for this Kevin. Can you please explain "resisting any down loading", is this referring to jacknifing?
Thanks.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Never thought of it that way but maybe because I haven't rake hooked one in a while
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
........and narrow hand path
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Mgranato, I stopped listening to non experts a long time ago. Sometimes, obviously, people will come up with some gems but on matters of great detail in golf, an expert opinion is often the only one to listen to.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
There is absolutely NO WAY TO FAKE all the TrackMan numbers over a reasonable number of balls. No way.
Path & Clubface? Sure.
But Path, Clubface, Angle of Attack, VSP, HSP, Dynamic Loft, Spin Axis, etc.
No way.
Path & Clubface? Sure.
But Path, Clubface, Angle of Attack, VSP, HSP, Dynamic Loft, Spin Axis, etc.
No way.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
That's what people will never, ever understand or want to understand. You can't fake it. It's as if someone got all the numbers tight and got a good ballflightbut they don't like what they see on video it has to be a band aid. Still stuck in the dark ages.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
If you hit multiple shots with all good numbers, you will look positively TOUR through the ball.
mgranato
New
Can you fake an MRI? LM's are golfing MRIs. I can sure as heck fake it playable swing on video though.
That's how bassackwards it's gotten. People want a LOOK to produce tour numbers rather than want tour numbers to produce whatever look it takes.
I couldn't stop laughing when I saw that gem of producing good numbers the wrong way. Bless their hearts.
Actually.....
No disagreeing with you about usefulness of LM's, however the analogy of comparing it to an MRI isn't a great one. Depending on what you are looking for, MRI isn't necessarily foolproof. There are countless studies that have identified a high prevalence of "false positives". Up to 30% false positives in some cases.
Again, not disagreeing with the utility of LM's, just being a nit regarding the comparison to MRI
No disagreeing with you about usefulness of LM's, however the analogy of comparing it to an MRI isn't a great one. Depending on what you are looking for, MRI isn't necessarily foolproof. There are countless studies that have identified a high prevalence of "false positives". Up to 30% false positives in some cases.
Again, not disagreeing with the utility of LM's, just being a nit regarding the comparison to MRI
But you still go get the MRI even with its alleged flaws. There is even weakness in the design of all nuclear reactors but we still use and need nuclear energy to produce electricity. Throwing the baby out with the bath water!
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mgranato
New
Good point. It's also important to note that LM's don't get it right 100% of the time, the manufactures will tell you as much. But I do see them as the golfing equivalent to the MRI in that they see and record what all of the prior technologies could not. Not perfect by any means, but on total, they are the best for removing guesswork that we have today. Light years ahead of the camera and Xray.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
99% of the complaints about TrackMan on the internet come from non-owners.
Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
100% of Flightscope complaints come from non owners.
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