Clubpaths, and Hogan vs. Tiger 2000
- Thread starter Dariusz J.
- Start date
- Status
mgranato
New
Where do we know this from? Not saying it isn't true, just interested in the source. If you wont be outing anyone.
Last edited:
It's purely your opinion that Hogan's 1 iron was Tigers 3 iron.
"Well, my pitching wedge is like 51 degrees. My 9 iron is like 45, and that's like most people's gap wedges. A lot of the guys' pitching wedge is like my 9 irons, so I play with very weak lofts, but they have worked so far. I haven't changed my iron lofts since I was 14 years old."
Tiger Woods
When he was flying his 2 iron 270 yards,he was using balata balls which were not that dissimilar to balls Hogan used.
I understand perfectly why you have to sell Hogan as being the best ballstriker ever.Your whole biokinetics theory relies on it otherwise it falls to pieces but honestly people are getting tired of it.Most people are fairly intelligent you know.
Until you can prove Hogan's clubhead speed was close to Tigers,his better accuracy is a moot point.Perhaps Tiger could hit his 2 iron the same distance as Hogan's driver so you should be comparing the accuracy of Tigers 2 iron with Hogan's driver.
Anyway,Moe was the most accurate.Why not use him as the model for your biokinetics?Maybe he doesn't sell as well as Hogan?
Point of Clarification - Woods had switched to the solid ball Tour Accuracy for his win at Pebble Beach and the subsequent 2000-2001 golf thereafter.
ej20 mentioned a Hogan 210yd 1-iron, and I'm wondering if that was the 4th round Merion shot? If so, note in the 3rd round he was playing 7I into that hole and so the 'typical' yardage distances we can point to need calibrating.
Where do we know this from? Not saying it isn't true, just interested in the source. If you wont be outing anyone.
I have watched events on tv that measured clubhead speeds on some holes.I remember Tiger was 129,Hank Khuene was 130 and Daly 125.Daly outdrove Tiger because has always had too much spin on the ball.If Tiger early in his career had optimal launch conditions he would have averaged 350 yards.
I am also sure Tiger could get it in the 130's if he tried.Greg Norman said he could get it up to 132 so no reason to doubt Tiger couldn't.
Dariusz J.
New member
I won't be trying to prove anything and you can think whatever you want.
And FYI I am not selling anything and nothing will fall into pieces. Lastly, I am not trying to sell Hogan as the best ballstriker ever. He was the best ballstriker ever if you like it or not because more knowledgeable people than you, me and anyone on here said so. Your private opinion here or your golfing preferences does not matter much, believe me.
Cheers
He told you why. Read.
According to Dan Jenkins who dislikes Tiger intensely, who was a friend of Hogan's and has seen both in their primes, Tiger hit shots Hogan couldn't even dream of.
I think you can use Moe as a model for accuracy, he's human, he makes the club do what it needs to do to be super accurate and he could repeat it almost every time over a period of 50+yrs, the not been a winner comment is untrue, Moe won plenty, who better to study than the most accurate, why study someone less accurate if your purpose is to find out what biokinetics are been used to be the most accurate.
Maybe it's in the mind and since Dariusz can't study the brain or at least in a manner that would present a competent study.... maybe Dariusz is looking in the wrong place.
Last edited:
birly-shirly
New
Come on Dariusz. Take 1953 off of Hogan's resume and what are you left with?
I can't really credit the idea that Woods' entire year in 2000 was down to a hot streak of timing, and I can't really credit a biomechanical theory that doesn't explain what Tiger was doing so well.
Finally, I find it really ironic that you rank Hogan out on his own on the strength of eye-witness testimony - but that you gloss over what Hogan said himself - firstly, that he was a better golfer before his accident, and secondly, how highly he rated the shotmaking skills of the golfers who came long after his prime.
Dariusz J.
New member
While it is very true that I cannot guarantee that my theories on biokinetics may be false as well as it is more than true that I am not capable of studying neuromechanics I have my opinions on Moe as expressed before in this thread. I can only add that Moe's swing motion was not IMO mechanically great (he couldn't use his kinetic potential which would explain his lack of length) because shoulder joints are too weak to coordinate rapid motion of distal parts with main body movement. Moe's original mind could require this (arms freedom) but neither it can be trained nor automated, I am afraid.
Nothing very important would happen. Hogan would have had 3 majors less but his reputation of greatest ballstriker would not suffer much since everyone would have had other several years of ballstriking display. Do not forget that much more important for everyone (including Hogan) was one single Merion just after his accident.
As regards Woods's year 2000, it would be not fair to say that his biokinetics was not a factor here and there; however, the truth is that his ballstriking potential was not on the same level each year and while Hogan's improved with age, Tiger's deteriorates. It is not any mystery to see that Woods's motion is heavily timing dependent, unfortunately - opposite to post-secret Hogan's.
Lastly, it is no odd that Hogan preferred 1948-49 (pre-accident years) and was saying later that he swung like a cripple after despite he won most important tournaments. The principles of the motion were the same though (after 1947).
Cheers
Ah, your changing the parameters is it about accuracy or length or both? Moe played with the same type of equipment as Hogan, wood woods and balata balls, Moe wasn't a short hitter, when he wanted he could get it out there, he chose to be accurate and control the ball , the ultimate ballstriker like he said" purity of technique".
Hogan thought Moe was hitting "accidents"(straight shots one after another). Moe said watch I'll hit another accident, Hogan replied keep hitting those accidents son and Moe did for 50+yrs.
Moe could hit any shot on demand straight , fade , draw, high, low ,whatever you asked for.
Last edited:
Richie3Jack
New
David Toms is short, but is a great overall driver of the ball and a great Danger Zone player. In fact, he really improved on those stats this season, so another feather in the cap for Brian.
Advanced Total Driving is based on:
a) driving distance
b) fwy %
c) avg. distance from edge of the rough when fairway is missed.
I have a proprietary formula that I use that I believe best represents a golfer's driving ability on Tour.
In order to be the best in the Danger Zone...you will need to hit it...on average...to about 34 feet or so. One year Tiger was at something astounding like 28 feet. I mean...that's absurdely good (it was in the Haney years, can't remember which one). But, he wasn't a good driver of the ball that year.
Joe Durant is short (lost distance this year in particular), hits a ton of fairways and is a good Danger Zone player and awful putter.
I wouldn't compare Hogan to Durant.
There is almost an overwhelming amount of factors here to consider.
Things like the modern equipment...which I believe has hurt golf swings.
I have a friend who played at the U. He's about 12 years older than me.
When I first played golf with him, it was the persimmon/metal wood era and he was about the best ballstriker I ever saw. Hit it pretty long and down the center. Rifled at flags, which seemed like all round long (horrible, and I mean horrible putter)
But when he got into the titanium era he was still really good with his irons and more or less accurate with his driver. But I think he lost that advantage of being so precise with the persimmon whereas the other golfers would hit sky balls, toe-hooks, etc. He was hitting it on the screws over and over again and I think lost a giant advantage on other golfers. I also think he probably hits down with the drier which was more than fine with persimmon, but a different ball game with titanium.
3JACK
Richie I have read a couple of times where you said it's okay to hit down with a persimmon wood, why is that?
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
You needed to spin it to keep it in the air
Last edited:
Richie3Jack
New
CoG in persimmon is in a completely different spot than it is in a titanium driver.
3JACK
3JACK
I did and it didn't make sense.The reason he didn't win more against the best players was he was a bit awkward,wasn't accepted on the PGA tour and he went back to Canada.Doesn't prove he wasn't a better "biokinetic" model than Hogan.
Hogan would make a much more attractive model to promote your theories.I am sure there are many more Hogan admirers out there than Moe.
And Dariusz does have horse in the race.He has a theory and website he's trying to promote which is fine,why deny it?
My 2 cents
1. I think Hogan's swing repeated like almost no one else's. If we had our hypothetical Hogan's and Tiger's each hit 100 balls with 3 wood, 3 iron, 5 iron, 7 iron, and 9 iron, I think Hogan would beat Tiger in hitting it consistently closer to the pin.
2. But the worshipping of Hogan's consistent and repetitive swing seems to miss the point Kevin made, and that I would repeat: Tiger has hit NUMEROUS shots in his career that at that time he attempted them 99% of all those watching him try those shots would have said they were IMPOSSIBLE. Tiger has done things with a club that no one else even thought of.
Case in point: final round of the Masters this year, the shorter par 3 on the front. The pin was front left and you COULD NOT get below the hole. No one did it all day. Then Tiger came up to it hit this HUGE hooking 9 iron that started WAY right, came swooping back, landed within a 5 foot spot of a hump on the front right of the green and ran all the way down to 5 feet below the hole. He made birdie. No one else even THOUGHT of the shot, and Tiger pulled it off.
3. There have been a LOT of great swings. Snead, Nelson, Nicklaus, Trevino, Watson. It's not like Hogan is the only player in history who ever figured out how to stripe it. I like learning from Hogan's swing. But I also like learning from others. In terms of "great swings" there are a lot of models out there.
In terms of great players....well, I never saw Hogan play, but Tiger took the game of golf to a level I couldn't even imagine before watching him play.
1. I think Hogan's swing repeated like almost no one else's. If we had our hypothetical Hogan's and Tiger's each hit 100 balls with 3 wood, 3 iron, 5 iron, 7 iron, and 9 iron, I think Hogan would beat Tiger in hitting it consistently closer to the pin.
2. But the worshipping of Hogan's consistent and repetitive swing seems to miss the point Kevin made, and that I would repeat: Tiger has hit NUMEROUS shots in his career that at that time he attempted them 99% of all those watching him try those shots would have said they were IMPOSSIBLE. Tiger has done things with a club that no one else even thought of.
Case in point: final round of the Masters this year, the shorter par 3 on the front. The pin was front left and you COULD NOT get below the hole. No one did it all day. Then Tiger came up to it hit this HUGE hooking 9 iron that started WAY right, came swooping back, landed within a 5 foot spot of a hump on the front right of the green and ran all the way down to 5 feet below the hole. He made birdie. No one else even THOUGHT of the shot, and Tiger pulled it off.
3. There have been a LOT of great swings. Snead, Nelson, Nicklaus, Trevino, Watson. It's not like Hogan is the only player in history who ever figured out how to stripe it. I like learning from Hogan's swing. But I also like learning from others. In terms of "great swings" there are a lot of models out there.
In terms of great players....well, I never saw Hogan play, but Tiger took the game of golf to a level I couldn't even imagine before watching him play.
- Status