"Complete Junk" (Audio Commentary w/pics!)

[Brian Manzella]

I NEVER imply that.

Now you may see Hardy's theories as 100% valid, but what I am saying is there are too many exceptions to his 'rules' to make it really valid.

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[Vaako]

quote:Originally posted by jeffy

quote:Originally posted by Vaako

quote:Originally posted by jeffy

...

The truth is Hardy has had great success with a bunch of struggling pros but does not have a lot of recent experience with "real golfers" and I think it shows in some areas. The weak grip comment is a perfect example, and I am aware of others that will be addressed in the next book. However, I think the cynicism and hostility towards Hardy that appears on this site is classless and petty. Hardy is trying to do the same thing as Brain: improve people's golf games! He has been in the game longer and, as far as I know, worked just as hard. When Brian gets his due, I will applaud! I've bought all his videos and DVDs and they fit very nicely with what I've learned from Jim via Carol Mann. Why don't we just stop this childish pissing contest right here!?!

Jeff

- bold by Vaako -


Have you ever taken a lesson yourself from - or met - Hardy in person?

If I'm reading this the right way your Jim Hardy stuff comes via Carol Mann.


Vaako

I've never met Jim. I saw Carol for three days in March (before anyone had heard of Jim Hardy, other than his tour students) and two days in May (she's in Houston, I'm in NYC). We periodically keep in touch via email.

I initially went to see Carol because she was a student of Manuel de la Torre and I'd found de la Torre's "Understanding the Golf Swing" very helpful last season. I was quite surprised when she mentioned Hardy and his theories and how she had moved on from de la Torre's two-plane swing to Hardy's one-plane swing. I became very intrigued about the one-plane swing when she told me that she played her best tournament golf when she pretty much by accident adopted a more bent-over posture in 1968 and won 18 tournaments over the next two years. Eventually she slipped back to a more erect posture and her old two-plane swing, stopped winning as much and eventually left the tour from a back injury, which she now believes was caused, at least partially, by her two-plane swing. However, it wasn't until many years later when Hardy explained his one-plane/two-plane theory to her that she realized what had happened. Hardy and Mann were married but divorced in the late '80's, reconciled some time after their divorce and are now very close collaborators.

Jim does not give private lessons to handicap players, other than his kids. Carol likes to joke that she is the worst player he does teach. Since Carol does teach handicap players, I think she can better relate Jim's theories to the average golfer than Jim can. Jim's only real interest is to coach touring pros and to teach his theories to teaching professionals. I'd hoped to finally meet Jim at his November two-day seminar in Houston, which I signed up for (Carol was also going to be there), but, sadly, I can't make it now.

Jeff

What kind of results did you get from you visits (to Houston)?

And - how much of these were Mann's teaching and how much you can trace to Hardy's published ideas?


Vaako

 

[jeffy]

quote:Originally posted by Vaako
[What kind of results did you get from you visits (to Houston)?

And - how much of these were Mann's teaching and how much you can trace to Hardy's published ideas?


Vaako

Since I joined my club in 1992, my average score as recorded on the GHIN computer has been 88 or 89. Since August 1 of this year, my average score has been 82. Carol follows Jim's published (and unpublished) ideas pretty much 100% as to the "what" to do; obviously, she tailors the "how" to do it to the pupil. BTW, at the beginning of October I began to add some of Brian's instruction to the mix (the twistaway works great with a one-plane swing) and I expect to see continued improvement.

Jeff

 

[Vaako]

quote:Originally posted by jeffy

quote:Originally posted by Vaako
[What kind of results did you get from you visits (to Houston)?

And - how much of these were Mann's teaching and how much you can trace to Hardy's published ideas?


Vaako

Since I joined my club in 1992, my average score as recorded on the GHIN computer has been 88 or 89. Since August 1 of this year, my average score has been 82. Carol follows Jim's published (and unpublished) ideas pretty much 100% as to the "what" to do; obviously, she tailors the "how" to do it to the pupil. BTW, at the beginning of October I began to add some of Brian's instruction to the mix (the twistaway works great with a one-plane swing) and I expect to see continued improvement.

Jeff

Looks like you got excellent results. You basically moved from 'round bogey golf to 'round high singles? I know at least one person who would give his left testicle for result like that - not me, though.

I thought Carol Mann would be doing a lot more then pure Jim Hardy and when you were taking about Hardy - well - you would be really talking more about Carol Mann's take on things. Teaches me to make wild assumptions, I guess.

Would it be accurate to say that Mann/Hardy fixed your pivot (Zone 1 components & Plane Line from Three Imperatives), but they overlook Lag and Flat Left Wrist (from Three Imperatives)? Or, does the un-published material address lag and flat left wrist?


Vaako

 

[jeffy]

quote:Originally posted by Vaako
[
Looks like you got excellent results. You basically moved from 'round bogey golf to 'round high singles? I know at least one person who would give his left testicle for result like that - not me, though.

I thought Carol Mann would be doing a lot more then pure Jim Hardy and when you were taking about Hardy - well - you would be really talking more about Carol Mann's take on things. Teaches me to make wild assumptions, I guess.

Would it be accurate to say that Mann/Hardy fixed your pivot (Zone 1 components & Plane Line from Three Imperatives), but they overlook Lag and Flat Left Wrist (from Three Imperatives)? Or, does the un-published material address lag and flat left wrist?


Vaako

Carol really fixed my posture and swing path: I had been too erect (I'm still prone to "stand-up" during the swing, but I'll try to eliminate that over the winter) and too wide and vertical with my arms (sort of a one or zero shift move). Now I'm more bent over and have more of a double-shift swing path. In a one-plane swing, Jim wants the left wrist flat and doesn't mind if the face is a little shut (that is in his book as well as his PGA Teaching Summit DVD). Carol and I did talk about creating lag, including some thoughts and drills not yet published. BTW, Carol does add alot beyond "published" Hardy in the "how to" explanations as well as a lot of very good putting and short game instruction.

Jeff