"Complete Junk" (Audio Commentary w/pics!)

[Jim Kobylinski]

self-mastery....you ever have any instruction from a TGM A.I.?

You say, "Humans are not machines, in the 1ps you coil and uncoil, dont worry 'bout swivel or release."

This is very true, and basically all i think about as well. I use a swinging procedure. TGM isn't as hard as some make it out to be. I've been helping someone over seas whose swing i've never seen and have seriously improved his ball striking skills and is finally getting compression and learning how to full roll it.

 

[self-mastery]

I'm not ragging on TGM.I've learned alot here, but I find the 1ps as practiced by me to be easier. I've never made so much progress in so little time, and something silly like semantics regarding plane lines should not prevent ppl from trying it. TGM is incomplete without instruction, with my new method I was out hitting homeruns off the tee my first round. I'm completely enamored, I've never had success off the tee. I'm actually satisfied after a round.... I think instruction is overrated, in other sports ppl find success and enjoyment from home taught techniques, damn look at the senoir tour and all the unique swings...... Just thought we needed a neutral voice in this thread....

 

[jeffy]

quote:Originally posted by self-mastery


I don't understand why Chuck Quinton's website (www.oneplanegolfswing.com/) has been pooed on in this thread.

I thought it was obvious: he was just making it up! He doesn't represent or speak for Hardy. At the time this thread was initiated, he had never met Hardy nor had he attended one of his seminars (don't know whether that has changed). He'd only seen Hardy's first Academy Live segment (which was only about ten minutes of actual discussion) and had spoken to someone who had spoken with Hardy. Otherwise, everything else on his site was his "interpretation". In addition, there are flagrant errors on his site, such as the statement that Haney is making Woods one-plane. Hello! Woods was one-plane when he came on tour! Today, Tiger's left arm is steeper than his shoulder line at the top, which is unusual for a one-planer, but all his other fundamentals and movements are pretty much one-plane, as they have always been.

Jeff

 

[Stumper]

quote:Originally posted by self-mastery
the hogan/vijay model is best for playing a pow'r fade, hardys version with the 30-35 degree spine angle seems to be a draw machine.

Ok, the thing about VJ is this: he's hooker. Seriously, he would hook EVERYTHING if not for his equipment. HE doesn't make that powerfade, HE makes a hook. His woods are what make it a power fade. Given to anyone else on Tour, almost 100% of them would be hitting weak slices.

 

[birdie_man]

I saw in an article in GD a while ago...

Vijay said: "I get my caddie to check that my clubface is square or slightly open at the top. I don't want to miss shots left."

From another article:

"Getting the hip movement right was the biggest breakthrough in my swing. It happened about four years ago. I learned how to really fire my hips for a true, full release. When your hips slow down, you have to flip your hands over to compensate, and that's when the ball goes left. When I clear my hips fast, I can swing as hard as I want, and the ball never goes left."
http://www.golfdigest.com/instruction/index.ssf?/instruction/gd200506vijaysingh.html

True though that his woods are open (I know his driver is anyway). Apparently his driver is 5* open.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_7_55/ai_n6093000

-Paul

 

[Stumper]

quote:Originally posted by birdie_man

I saw in an article in GD a while ago...

Vijay said: "I get my caddie to check that my clubface is square or slightly open at the top. I don't want to miss shots left."

From another article:

"Getting the hip movement right was the biggest breakthrough in my swing. It happened about four years ago. I learned how to really fire my hips for a true, full release. When your hips slow down, you have to flip your hands over to compensate, and that's when the ball goes left. When I clear my hips fast, I can swing as hard as I want, and the ball never goes left."
http://www.golfdigest.com/instruction/index.ssf?/instruction/gd200506vijaysingh.html

True though that his woods are open (I know his driver is anyway). Apparently his driver is 5* open.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_7_55/ai_n6093000

-Paul

I heard from somebody with really good connections on Tour that other players have hit VJ's woods, or woods made for him. ALL of them hit these puny weak slices. Simply put, NOBODY can play VJ's clubs because they are so fade biased.

He has to create a hook action to keep it to a power fade. btw, his driver isn't just 5* open, it's toe weighted as well.

 

[Yuraway]

What is your name? Brian who? I have never seen a more blatant example of professional jealousy in my life. Do you think ridicule of another teacher's methods somehow elevates you in the eyes of your groupies? You strike me as everything a golf pro should NOT be. So sorry you were asleep at the switch and let something new pass you by. It's obvious the success of others really bothers you. You, like so many so-called pros are so locked into YOUR theory and teaching approach that you ignore or critizize anything that goes against the dribble you expouse. Much to the detriment of your own students I'm sure. Why hasn't the average handicap gone down in the last 20 years? You are THE example of the reason. But don't sweat it. Have another Scotch & Soda, or based on listening to your audio, have your 5th. All in all however, your website is note without merit, it can always serve as a bad example.

 

[birdie_man]

No....I can see how you would think that right off the back though. Brian is just very adiment about his opinions on it because, I believe, he truly does know better. I'd prolly be frustrated if I was him too. It's about what's right and what's wrong. That's all. A "quest for the truth."

...."You can't handle the truth!"........

....well, um.....bah.

Don't read into it anymore than that. I don't like to see people get recognition off this stuff either.....it's a systemized bunch of quick fixes as far as I'm concerned. That's my opinion and I don't really care if you don't like it either. He TRULY hasn't discovered anything new. Honestly man.

He just put something together in a way that's PERFECT for Golf Digest to put in their magazine. Credit to him, he's gonna make some money. I don't want to say he's doing this intentionally to "fool everyone" or any other **** like that either. He's prolly a good guy. IMO though, it would be similar to someone getting credit for building a crappy airplane in their backyard when people have been building F-18s for years.

It sounds like more of a complete system than almost anything they've ever (as far as I have seen anyway) put in their magazine.

....But it's not too much! Oh nonono....any more than that and your mind is gonna be so cluttered with gobbledy-gook that you'll just break down and crumple up into a fetal ball on the ground (actually...that could happen to someone who expects to take in all of TGM in a few quick days....).

It has to take only 10 minutes to learn for people to consider it, after all.

The "shaft across the line at the top" as a requirement for a "2-plane" swing bothers me, BTW.....

...same with "Warning! Do not attempt to develop a 1P swing while using a weak grip," and vice-versa for the "2P" swing (from http://www.golfdigest.com/instruction/index.ssf?/instruction/gd200505swingplane4.html).

I find it strange how he talks so much about Hogan and Snead.....yet according to this little warning disclaimer, Hogan and Snead would both have actually been "in danger" of something, apparently.....weak grip + "1P" swing? Warning disclaimer?

Too many generalized "rules," IMO.

And it still is position golf (we won't get into that), which also bothers me. It's just an inferior description of the plane. Period. It's not the best (and sure as hell isn't the most clear or efficient) way to describe it, and it's not the best way for people to think of it, either. I'm sorry- it isn't.

And the method used in TGM IS NOT COMPLICATED, either. I, some random, 20 year old, golf-obsessed guy, could prolly teach the basics of it to a class of 7 year olds in 10 minutes. Maybe 5...who knows.

I dunno man, I guess if you're gonna take this in as one big quick fix then go for it....if that's what you really want. To each his own. I don't like to see this put up on any more of a pedistal than it deserves tho- as a new "discovery in golf" or something. It simply is not the pinnacle of golf instruction it's made out to be, IMO, of course.

-Paul

 

[Brian Manzella]

Just what I need, a new troll.

Listen Yuraway, you are coming in at a perfect time. I haven't had 2 free seconds since I lost my house in the Huricane, and yup, you did sneek by my 1 minute a day look around here.

But...

I am finally seeing light at the and of the tunnel, and will be able to adequately debate you and your malinformed ideas of me and my 'method' and style.

Welcome——but you had better bring your A game.

 

[jeffy]

quote:Originally posted by birdie_man

No....I can see how you would think that right off the back though. Brian is just very adiment about his opinions on it because, I believe, he truly does know better. I'd prolly be frustrated if I was him too. It's about what's right and what's wrong. That's all. A "quest for the truth."

...."You can't handle the truth!"........

....well, um.....bah.

Don't read into it anymore than that. I don't like to see people get recognition off this stuff either.....it's a systemized bunch of quick fixes as far as I'm concerned. That's my opinion and I don't really care if you don't like it either. He TRULY hasn't discovered anything new. Honestly man.

He just put something together in a way that's PERFECT for Golf Digest to put in their magazine. Credit to him, he's gonna make some money. I don't want to say he's doing this intentionally to "fool everyone" or any other **** like that either. He's prolly a good guy. IMO though, it would be similar to someone getting credit for building a crappy airplane in their backyard when people have been building F-18s for years.

It sounds like more of a complete system than almost anything they've ever (as far as I have seen anyway) put in their magazine.

....But it's not too much! Oh nonono....any more than that and your mind is gonna be so cluttered with gobbledy-gook that you'll just break down and crumple up into a fetal ball on the ground (actually...that could happen to someone who expects to take in all of TGM in a few quick days....).

It has to take only 10 minutes to learn for people to consider it, after all.

The "shaft across the line at the top" as a requirement for a "2-plane" swing bothers me, BTW.....

...same with "Warning! Do not attempt to develop a 1P swing while using a weak grip," and vice-versa for the "2P" swing (from http://www.golfdigest.com/instruction/index.ssf?/instruction/gd200505swingplane4.html)

I find it strange how he talks so much about Hogan and Snead.....yet according to this little warning disclaimer, Hogan and Snead would both have actually been "in danger" of something, apparently.....weak grip + "1P" swing? Warning disclaimer? C'mon....

Too many generalized "rules."

And it still is position golf (we won't get into that), which also bothers me. It's just an inferior description of the plane. Period. It's not the best (and sure as hell isn't the most clear or efficient) way to describe it, and it's not the best way for people to think of it, either. I'm sorry- it isn't.

And the method used in TGM IS NOT COMPLICATED, either. I, some random, 20 year old, golf-obsessed guy, could prolly teach the basics of it to a class of 7 year olds in 10 minutes. Maybe 5...who knows.

I dunno man, I guess if you're gonna take this in as one big quick fix then go for it....if that's what you really want. To each his own. I don't like to see this put up on any more of a pedistal than it deserves tho- as a new "discovery in golf" or something. It simply is not the pinnacle of golf instruction it's made out to be, IMO, of course.

-Paul

The truth is Hardy has had great success with a bunch of struggling pros but does not have a lot of recent experience with "real golfers" and I think it shows in some areas. The weak grip comment is a perfect example, and I am aware of others that will be addressed in the next book. However, I think the cynicism and hostility towards Hardy that appears on this site is classless and petty. Hardy is trying to do the same thing as Brain: improve people's golf games! He has been in the game longer and, as far as I know, worked just as hard. When Brian gets his due, I will applaud! I've bought all his videos and DVDs and they fit very nicely with what I've learned from Jim via Carol Mann. Why don't we just stop this childish pissing contest right here!?!

Jeff

 

[MizunoJoe]

If Hardy has had success with pros, it's because they already have the shaft slanting forward at impact. 99+% of "real golfers" are flippers and Hardy doesn't even address it.

 

[birdie_man]

quote:Originally posted by jeffy
Hardy is trying to do the same thing as Brain: improve people's golf games! He has been in the game longer and, as far as I know, worked just as hard. When Brian gets his due, I will applaud! I've bought all his videos and DVDs and they fit very nicely with what I've learned from Jim via Carol Mann. Why don't we just stop this childish pissing contest right here!?!

Good point Jeff...I can appreciate anyone who's trying to make a genuine effort to do something good.

But that doesn't mean I have to agree with him. I do agree that it's sketchy to attack people (as in attack THE PERSON) out and out....but anyone can criticize an IDEA. That's how the best ones comes out (eventually.......it seems there's always so much **** to wade through with these kind of things).

Who knows, maybe it's because I happen to be in the other "camp"....but I don't think so. In my opinion, TGM and the people who teach it do not get the credit they deserve. I think that does have a lot to do with the reactions to a lot of this mainstream stuff. I guess you can scream at the top of your lungs all your want- but if no one listens, you're just gonna get a sore throat.

...I mean, if I'm a little disappointed at the lack of recognition TGM teachers seem to get......imagine how Brian and co. must feel. They want to help people too, and I think they really really could with this TGM stuff....because I feel they truly know what the average golfer needs.

I guess that's the way it goes......hopefully credit will be given where credit it due in the end.

Now.....time for me to go put another bag of flaming **** on GD's doorstep...jk. []

 

[birdie_man]

Quote by Jeffy...

quote:Why don't we just stop this childish pissing contest right here!?!

Yes....less pissing. Agreed.

We can debate tho...that's a different story.

So SHUT UP JEFFY! You alcoholic! Go have another RUM AND COKE!! [8D]

 

[birdie_man]

quote:Originally posted by Yuraway

So sorry you were asleep at the switch and let something new pass you by.

I'm gonna start sounding like Brian's backup up-in-here...but...

...I just caught that....

....and...

I think it's different to agree with a new idea (TRULY new...this isn't breaking new trail anywhere, as far as I can see...) and hop on a bandwagon because it's the new hot thing.

I honestly don't think Brian is missing out on anything that he already doesn't know.

Again, I just really think that this whole thing is about 2 underlying things.

"Credit being given where credit is TRULY due"....everytime something else gets credit, it's like TGM collectively getting a kick in the face IMO. I think it's more than simply "not being happy for another's success."

.....it's also about the truth....

What is the truth? What truly is generally, the overall best way to do something? Who are the real revolutionaries?

I guess anyone has the right to debate any of those questions for themselves....no matter what camp they fall into. Wading through the ****...

 

[Brian Manzella]

I agree with Jeffy...lets just fix people.

 

[Steve Khatib]

Brian, has invented his theory he is just translating Physics and Geometry into golf. He has his own style but the research has been done by Mr Kelley. If you are ignorant enough to folow the fads like the rest of the golf world enjoy your leekage, however if you want truth rather than smoke and mirrors marketing follow TGM instructors.

Yuraway, you would make a great PGA right wing suck just like the great Rick Martino.

quote:Originally posted by Yuraway

What is your name? Brian who? I have never seen a more blatant example of professional jealousy in my life. Do you think ridicule of another teacher's methods somehow elevates you in the eyes of your groupies? You strike me as everything a golf pro should NOT be. So sorry you were asleep at the switch and let something new pass you by. It's obvious the success of others really bothers you. You, like so many so-called pros are so locked into YOUR theory and teaching approach that you ignore or critizize anything that goes against the dribble you expouse. Much to the detriment of your own students I'm sure. Why hasn't the average handicap gone down in the last 20 years? You are THE example of the reason. But don't sweat it. Have another Scotch & Soda, or based on listening to your audio, have your 5th. All in all however, your website is note without merit, it can always serve as a bad example.

 

[Vaako]

quote:Originally posted by jeffy

...

The truth is Hardy has had great success with a bunch of struggling pros but does not have a lot of recent experience with "real golfers" and I think it shows in some areas. The weak grip comment is a perfect example, and I am aware of others that will be addressed in the next book. However, I think the cynicism and hostility towards Hardy that appears on this site is classless and petty. Hardy is trying to do the same thing as Brain: improve people's golf games! He has been in the game longer and, as far as I know, worked just as hard. When Brian gets his due, I will applaud! I've bought all his videos and DVDs and they fit very nicely with what I've learned from Jim via Carol Mann. Why don't we just stop this childish pissing contest right here!?!

Jeff

- bold by Vaako -


Have you ever taken a lesson yourself from - or met - Hardy in person?

If I'm reading this the right way your Jim Hardy stuff comes via Carol Mann.


Vaako

 

[jeffy]

quote:Originally posted by Vaako

quote:Originally posted by jeffy

...

The truth is Hardy has had great success with a bunch of struggling pros but does not have a lot of recent experience with "real golfers" and I think it shows in some areas. The weak grip comment is a perfect example, and I am aware of others that will be addressed in the next book. However, I think the cynicism and hostility towards Hardy that appears on this site is classless and petty. Hardy is trying to do the same thing as Brain: improve people's golf games! He has been in the game longer and, as far as I know, worked just as hard. When Brian gets his due, I will applaud! I've bought all his videos and DVDs and they fit very nicely with what I've learned from Jim via Carol Mann. Why don't we just stop this childish pissing contest right here!?!

Jeff

- bold by Vaako -


Have you ever taken a lesson yourself from - or met - Hardy in person?

If I'm reading this the right way your Jim Hardy stuff comes via Carol Mann.


Vaako

I've never met Jim. I saw Carol for three days in March (before anyone had heard of Jim Hardy, other than his tour students) and two days in May (she's in Houston, I'm in NYC). We periodically keep in touch via email.

I initially went to see Carol because she was a student of Manuel de la Torre and I'd found de la Torre's "Understanding the Golf Swing" very helpful last season. I was quite surprised when she mentioned Hardy and his theories and how she had moved on from de la Torre's two-plane swing to Hardy's one-plane swing. I became very intrigued about the one-plane swing when she told me that she played her best tournament golf when she pretty much by accident adopted a more bent-over posture in 1968 and won 18 tournaments over the next two years. Eventually she slipped back to a more erect posture and her old two-plane swing, stopped winning as much and eventually left the tour from a back injury, which she now believes was caused, at least partially, by her two-plane swing. However, it wasn't until many years later when Hardy explained his one-plane/two-plane theory to her that she realized what had happened. Hardy and Mann were married but divorced in the late '80's, reconciled some time after their divorce and are now very close collaborators.

Jim does not give private lessons to handicap players, other than his kids. Carol likes to joke that she is the worst player he does teach. Since Carol does teach handicap players, I think she can better relate Jim's theories to the average golfer than Jim can. Jim's only real interest is to coach touring pros and to teach his theories to teaching professionals. I'd hoped to finally meet Jim at his November two-day seminar in Houston, which I signed up for (Carol was also going to be there), but, sadly, I can't make it now.

Jeff

 

[Brian Manzella]

"Jim does not give private lessons to handicap players, other than his kids."

I do.

 

[karburo]

All i got at the end of listening this is that all the theories hardy has are right brian just wants to call them the reverse way. This is because he is doing a complete difrent analysis not shoulder wise but shaft