"Complete Junk" (Audio Commentary w/pics!)

[jeffy]

quote:Originally posted by cdog

I think you can attain the 3 imperatives and 3 essentials either way.

OK, maybe so (whatever those six things are...) but isn't the more important question: how many tournaments can you win? Carol won 10 in 1968 and 8 in 1969 when she was swinging one-plane out of a career total of 38. She won tournaments using both methods, but she won a lot more frequently swinging one-plane. You are not going to persuade her that both methods are equally effective.

 

[birdie_man]

Tiger was a "2-planer" before his recent changes, my friend.

 

[jeffy]

quote:Originally posted by birdie_man

Tiger was a "2-planer" before his recent changes, my friend.

Well, that may be your opinion, but it is not Hardy's (see page 4 of his book), nor is it Carol Mann's. It's also not what his swing sequences show. Don't know what you're smoking, my friend.

 

[birdie_man]

Listen man...I don't care how much you support Jim Hardy's swing...don't ever say that I'm smoking anything again. This isn't a grade 5 debate here. Please don't even get into that mode...I don't have any patience for that.

K, maybe I was being a bit cocky but I'm no dope head.

 

[birdie_man]

K...now I'll try to stick to the topic here...

I'll admit I'm no expert so just correct me whenever I'm wrong but...it says right on this site that Tiger used to be a "Jim Hardy two-planer."

http://www.mountainweb.com/oneplanegolfswing/p3_one_plane_vs_two_plane.html

FROM THE SITE: "David in the perfect two plane position at the top. His arms have a long way to go to get the club back on plane. Tiger Woods used to get in the same position at the top as seen here in 2001, but no more. He is moving more to a one plane swing with Hank Haney."

Again, correct me if I'm wrong (because I'm honestly not sure that I am)...but isn't the "JH one-plane" swing essentially more of a classic swing and has been used for far longer. I think more old timers used this swing whereas more new guys are now starting to use a swing that resembles the "JH two-plane" swing...like Adam Scott for example.

Most of the guys you named were older so surely their list of majors would be more impressive...

All I'm saying is that the new guys coming up who are using a "two-plane" swing need a few years to start tallying majors.

I'm honestly not the best guy to be debating this with you really...but that's what I'm gonna say from what I know anyway.

 

[jeffy]

quote:Originally posted by birdie_man

Listen man...I don't care how much you support Jim Hardy's swing...don't ever say that I'm smoking anything again. This isn't a grade 5 debate here so please give me some respect and I'll do the same.

Listen yourself, man: stop making threats you can't possibly carry out and start backing your opinions with some facts, evidence or expert opinion; that is a path that might earn you some respect. On that note, on what basis do you think Tiger was a two-planer, as defined by Hardy?

 

[birdie_man]

I dunno...as defined right on that site.

Take it easy...you're getting all into it. I don't even want to get all into this really. You can swing however you want and I'll do whatever I want...I don't really care. My basic point was that I don't like how people start getting into how one way is better than the other and blah blah blah etc. etc. Just take it easy. There are going to be differences of opinion on the golf swing depending on whom you talk to. It's like debating religion or something...we could go on forever. There's too many factors.

Ok, so you posted all those stats n' such showing who won the majors, etc. I'm not even going to get into that with you.

Besides, I didn't even tell you which swing I supported before you got going.

 

[jeffy]

quote:Originally posted by birdie_man

K...now I'll try to stick to the topic here...

I'll admit I'm no expert so just correct me whenever I'm wrong but...it says right on this site that Tiger used to be a "Jim Hardy two-planer."

http://www.mountainweb.com/oneplanegolfswing/p3_one_plane_vs_two_plane.html

Again, correct me if I'm wrong (because I'm honestly not sure that I am)...but isn't the "JH one-plane" swing essentially more of a classic swing. I think more old timers used this swing whereas more new guys are now starting to use the "JH two-plane" swing...like Adam Scott for example.

Most of the guys you named were older so surely their list of majors would be more impressive...
All I'm saying is that as more guys are using a "two-plane" swing there will be more of them who have majors.

I'm honestly not the best guy to be debating this with you really...but that's what I'm gonna say from what I know anyway.

That site is by some fool not associated with Hardy; maybe he was referring to Tiger's pre-Butch swing but I don't know or really care. I don't see any JH two-plane elements in either the pre-Haney Tiger or Adam Scott.

As far as the old guys go: I can't think of many two-planers from any era that won a lot, other than the ones I mentioned plus Hale Irwin who I forgot. Among the current two-planers, Mickelson is the only one in the top 5 and his most effective shot is his one-plane three-quarter shot. The other two in the top ten are Toms and Chris DiMarco, and we all know what tends to happen to DiMarco when holding a 54-hole lead (or the case of this year's Masters, 45-hole lead): disaster!

Enjoy that joint; wish I could join you!

 

[jeffy]

quote:Originally posted by birdie_man

I dunno...as defined right on that site.

Take it easy...you're getting all into it. I don't even want to get all into this really. You can swing however you want and I'll do whatever I want...I don't really care. My basic point was that I don't like how people start getting into how one way is better than the other and blah blah blah etc. etc. Just take it easy. There are going to be differences of opinion on the golf swing depending on whom you talk to. It's like debating religion or something...we could go on forever. There's too many factors.

Ok, so you posted all those stats n' such showing who won the majors, etc. I'm not even going to get into that with you.

Besides, I didn't even tell you which swing I supported before you got going.

Fair enough; as I've posted earlier, I don't think either method is "wrong", great golf is played using both methods.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

i'll say it again....the reason why i really don't buy into Hardy's theories is because:

1) there are too many exceptions to the rules

2) his theory on "plane lines" are references to nothing.

-----

It isn't where the arms or shoulders are....it is where the shaft is at impact. If you can do that being extremely flat or "one plane" as hardy likes to think, good for you. I'm not staying you can't put a good move on the ball doing it. I just don't agree with it.

 

[birdie_man]

quote:Originally posted by jeffy

This is the bogus site I'm referring to; do NOT consider it a valid representation of Hardy's thoughts:

http://www.mountainweb.com/oneplanegolfswing/p3_one_plane_vs_two_plane.html

Ohhh...ic ic ic.

quote:Originally posted by jeffy

I don't see any JH two-plane elements in either the pre-Haney Tiger or Adam Scott.

I'm confused tho, Adam Scott's swing looks much more upright than Vijay's. Looks closer to Toms to me...no?

http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/81493

quote:Originally posted by jeffy
As far as the old guys go: I can't think of many two-planers from any era that won a lot, other than the ones I mentioned plus Hale Irwin who I forgot. Among the current two-planers, Mickelson is the only one in the top 5 and his most effective shot is his one-plane three-quarter shot. The other two in the top ten are Toms and Chris DiMarco, and we all know what tends to happen to DiMarco when holding a 54-hole lead (or the case of this year's Masters, 45-hole lead): disaster!

Enjoy that joint; wish I could join you!

...Mickelson- A "two-plane" swinger? I don't understand at all. He swings around his body about as much as anyone.

Maybe I'm just not knowledgeable about his method, so help me out if I'm all screwball here, but his descriptions seem too broad and vague/generalized to me.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

quote:Originally posted by birdie_man


Maybe I'm just not knowledgeable about his method, so help me out if I'm all screwball here, but his descriptions seem too broad and vague/generalized to me.

hmm....maybe you're on to something?

 

[jeffy]

quote:Originally posted by birdie_man
[

quote:Originally posted by jeffy

I don't see any JH two-plane elements in either the pre-Haney Tiger or Adam Scott.

I'm confused tho, Adam Scott's swing looks much more upright than Vijay's. Looks closer to Toms to me...no?

http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/81493

quote:Originally posted by jeffy
As far as the old guys go: I can't think of many two-planers from any era that won a lot, other than the ones I mentioned plus Hale Irwin who I forgot. Among the current two-planers, Mickelson is the only one in the top 5 and his most effective shot is his one-plane three-quarter shot. The other two in the top ten are Toms and Chris DiMarco, and we all know what tends to happen to DiMarco when holding a 54-hole lead (or the case of this year's Masters, 45-hole lead): disaster!

Enjoy that joint; wish I could join you!

...Mickelson- A "two-plane" swinger? I don't understand at all. He swings around his body about as much as anyone.

Maybe I'm just not knowledgeable about his method, so help me out if I'm all screwball here, but his descriptions seem too broad and vague/generalized to me.

OK, let's take these one at a time. On Adam Scott, he is more upright than Vijay, but the left arms of both are more or less in line with the shoulders at the top. David Toms shoulders are quite clearly on a more shallow plane than his left arm: there is much more "air" between his left arm and right shoulder at the top.

At impact, Adam is more open than Toms, more weight is on the left side and at the finish he is much more around. Without question, though, his arms do not come as much inside on the backswing as other one-planers (e.g., Duval). No one said (despite what you may believe) that all one-plane swings are identical...

On Mickelson, he IS getting much more one-plane.

Here is a recent swing sequence:

http://www.golfdigest.com/instructi...ruction/swingsequences/gd200504mickelson.html

Here is one from 2002:

http://www.golfdigest.com/instructi...ruction/swingsequences/gd200209mickelson.html

Check the finish position: in 2005 he is much further around than in 2002. Now, he is much more "rounded" (in Carol Mann terms) than before. Clearly, he is moving more to a one-plane swing, a good move, in my view. I guess that means that, as of now, there are only two two-plane swingers (Toms and DiMarco) in the top ten. To me, DiMarco makes his money with his putter. That makes only one two-plane ball-striker in the top ten; I think that says something.

 

[Brian Manzella]

You (and Carol Mann) OBVIOUSLY don't know ANYTHING about David Toms' swing.

On the other hand, I do.

 

[mgjordan]

The bottom line is this: Swing plane angle has to do with how the SWEETSPOT OF THE GOLF CLUB TRAVELS. Usually, a no shift (single plane) stroke will be STEEPER on the backswing. Think about it. A double USUALLY (not always) goes back on a flatter plane and then SHIFTS TO a steeper plane where as most zero shift swings go up and down on the turned shoulder plane. With that said, you COULD be a no shift swinger on the elbow plane, but your swing would be very short or you would be very flexable. It is too hard to not shift on a flat plane. Why do you think common instruction wants you to "keep the club in front of you?" Because, even though these instructors don't know it, they understand that "keeping it in front" generally causes a steeper plane angle which usually will lead to zero shifts. The shoulder and left arm planes, while effected by plane shifting, DON'T CAUSE IT. Looking at a players left arm or shoulder turn angles does nothing.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

David swings more to the inside after impact that probably anybody on tour....

 

[jeffy]

quote:Originally posted by jim_0068

David swings more to the inside after impact that probably anybody on tour....

Have to disagree with you there, hoss. Check out the following down-the-line sequences from the GD site:

Els:

http://www.golfdigest.com/instructi...uction/swingsequences/gd200310powerswing.html

Lefty (the new "one-plane" version):

http://www.golfdigest.com/instructi...ruction/swingsequences/gd200504mickelson.html

Toms:

http://www.golfdigest.com/instructi...ruction/swingsequences/gd200208davidtoms.html

Looking at the frame where each player's hands are belt high in the through swing, the CLUBHEAD of Els and Phil is at least a foot or two to the left of David's, despite the left arms appearing to be in similar positions. This makes sense because Els and Phil have more "rounded" swings (as in "around the body"); David's is more vertical, consistent, of course, with their respective top-of-the-backswing positions.

But, of course, OBVIOUSLY I don't know ANYTHING about David's swing, despite what the pictures show...

 

[jeffy]

quote:Originally posted by mgjordan


Why do you think common instruction wants you to "keep the club in front of you?" Because, even though these instructors don't know it, they understand that "keeping it in front" generally causes a steeper plane angle which usually will lead to zero shifts. The shoulder and left arm planes, while effected by plane shifting, DON'T CAUSE IT. Looking at a players left arm or shoulder turn angles does nothing.

I definitely agree with the last point: the left arm/shoulder relationship is a result of how the club is swung back. Just placing your left arm and shoulder in line will not make you swing like Ben Hogan.

The "keep your arms in front of you" is classic two-plane dogma. It is counter-productive advice for anyone attempting to swing in a one-plane fashion. Look at Duval's swing:

http://www.golfdigest.com/instructi...uction/swingsequences/gd199904duvalswing.html

He never would have shot 59 "keeping his arms in front of his body". That is a prescription for horrific pulls with that type of body action, speaking from personal experience...

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

lol...i'm not posting in this thread anymore. You've been busted by your own pictures, look again jeffy.

Notice where the HANDS are after impact.

 

[jeffy]

quote:Originally posted by jim_0068

lol...i'm not posting in this thread anymore. You've been busted by your own pictures, look again jeffy.

Notice where the HANDS are after impact.

Busted? Not at all; the hands appear to be in similar positions (about on the toe line in each case) but the clubheads are in dramatically different spots. I thought that was one of the key distinctions between one and two-plane swings at this point in the through swing: the clubhead swinging more down the target line in a two-plane, the clubhead moving quicker to the left in a one-plane. Now, I don't really know what point you were trying to make. Perhaps you could elaborate.