"Complete Junk" (Audio Commentary w/pics!)

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rwh

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quote:Originally posted by mb6606

If you drew a line through Tom's right forearm at address extending up through his shoulders I believe you would see his right forearm take away is perfectly on plane at the top. Is not the right forearm take away the single plane swing?
bold added by rwh

Not necessarily. Plane shifts can occur during the Backstroke and/orthe Downstroke. So, you can go from address to the Top on one plane only (no shift), but you could shift planes during the Downstroke. Or, vice versa. Or, you can shift going up and coming down. Or, you can stay on the same plane throughout. There are a lot of possibilities.

One of the problems in discussing Planes is that there is no Standard. Different instructors have different definitions.

The most common pattern is to start out on what The Golfing Machine defines as the Elbow Plane, shift to the Turn Shoulder Plane going up, and then shift back to the Elbow Plane coming down. As defined in The Golfing Machine, there are not that many Zero Shift golf swings on the PGA tour.
 

jeffy

Banned
jim 0068 wrote:

jeffy...definition of what?


Duh, the definition of what is a "one plane" swing and a "two plane" swing.
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
quote:Originally posted by jeffy

jim 0068 wrote:

jeffy...definition of what?


Duh, the definition of what is a "one plane" swing and a "two plane" swing.

Exactly...so why do you feel hardy is right and brian is wrong. You can't just come here and say X is right and Y is wrong. State your opinion/debate with some facts and we'll discuss.
 

jeffy

Banned
OK, I'll say it a different way: your commentary simply nitpicks semantics and does not address any of the substantive issues surrounding Hardy's theory.
 

jeffy

Banned
jim 0068 wrote:

Exactly...so why do you feel hardy is right and brian is wrong. You can't just come here and say X is right and Y is wrong. State your opinion/debate with some facts and we'll discuss.

Hold on, hoss: where did I say either was right or wrong? I said (for the third time) that Brian's commentary simply quibbled with Hardy's terminology, no more. To me that made it disappointing because it did not address any of the substance of Jim's theory, which, if Brian attended Jim's seminar, he should be familiar with.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
I will post a detailed audio on this a little later.

But, until then, think of this:

If I had a theory that all girls have two belly buttons and all boys have one,

AND pictures showed that Girls have one and boys have two...

IS THAT "semantics"???
 

jeffy

Banned
brianman wrote:

f I had a theory that all girls have two belly buttons and all boys have one,

AND pictures showed that Girls have one and boys have two...

IS THAT "semantics"???



Not a very good analogy: what are you are doing in your audio commentary is no different than insisting that a car be called a "six-wheeler" instead of a "four-wheeler" because you choose to count the spare and the steering wheel. To paraphrase you: how can you call a car a four-wheeler when pictures show that it has six? I would call that semantics. Whether it is a "six-wheeler" or a "four-wheeler", It is still a car.

As you acknowledged on your audio, and then totally ignore, Hardy chose to designate a swing with Toms' characteristics (shallow shoulder plane, steeper arm plane) as "two-plane". Looking at it differently, you call it one plane. Big deal. It is still the same swing. And, at the top, the arms are STILL on a distinctly steeper plane than the shoulders. Just because you choose to ignore Hardy's definition in favor of your own in no way disproves his theory; in fact, it doesn't address his theory at all!

Setting aside the semantics, to me the significance of Hardy's work is the conclusion that the different styles of swinging (call them the "shoulders/left arm on a similar plane at the top" swing and the "left arm on a distinctly steeper plane than the shoulders at the top" swing) is that there are different sets of fundamentals that apply to each (as well as the corrollary, that there are fundamentals from one style that don't work with the other). In his book, he sets out the fundamentals required by each style. An assessment of these elements of Hardy's theory would be to me much more substantive and relevant than your "what I call one-plane, he calls two (and, oh, by the way, that's because he is looking at the relationship of the left arm and the shoulders at the top of the swing and I'm looking at something else)" commentary.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
What about the guys like David....flat shoulder turn steep arm swing...with a "Golfing machine" shift on the downswing as opposed to the ones like DT that come down on one plane & what about the 10,000 other exceptions to these two catorgies??

Marketing...and a lot of 'seems as if.'

Tell you what, I'll go buty the book and then do a video short on why there are just too many exceptions to the Hardy Rules to make it a valid theory.
 

jeffy

Banned
Well, I already know that there are exceptions; Nicklaus and Couples are the most dramatic (two-plane backswing, one-plane downswing), Mahaffey's a "reverse" two-plane (left arm more shallow than the shoulders). But I don't think Jim's theory is supposed to be golf's equivalent of Einstein's General Theory and meant to explain all swings. Rather, it is meant as a template to teach golfers an effective, efficient golf swing, without the contradictions and confusion of conventional instruction. What is of interest to me is: does his instruction accurately describe the general charcteristics of a swing like Vijay's (or Snead, or Mickey Wright) and is his instruction to achieve such a swing valid? If not, where does it go wrong?
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
A 'reverse' two-plane-er?

Come on.

Listen. I heard the guy live. He knows golf. I said so. But, as a WAY to catolog swings...

...it is about a C-
 

jeffy

Banned
OK, what do you call a swing where the left arm is more shallow at the top than the shoulders? (BTW, the "reverse two-plane" term I made up, it isn't Hardy's).

I concede that there is no doubt that the precision of TGM permits innumerable categories of swings, and is no doubt a superior cataloging tool. But, again, I don't care. My question is, is Hardy's instruction valid and, if not, where does he go wrong?

By the way, Carol Mann is my teacher and, in my view, is more advanced in her thinking than Hardy (her ex-husband); there are things in his book I don't necessarily agree with or think he should have included but left out. Also, it doesn't hurt that she spent much of her career as a two-plane swinger but had her best years (1968 and 1969: 18 victories) playing with a one-plane swing (at least she thinks so).
 

EdZ

New
If Carol Mann is your teacher, you are in great hands! From what little I have seen of her (in the TGC show on Mickey Wright), she clearly knows a good swing! Her quotes in that show sum up the swing as well as any I've heard.
 

jeffy

Banned
Sounds excellent; BTW, you seem to have a nice "one-plane/double-shift-plane/left arm-on-similar-plane-as-the-shoulders-at-the-top" swing working in your avatar.

Jeff
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
It's called a single-shift 'swing' plane and 'standard' shouler plane (flat shoulder turn backstroke and on-plane shoulder turn downstroke).

It's funny. Homer already figured all of this out.

All that ought to be done in golf instruction is this:

How to get the most people to:

TRACE a straight plane LINE, control the clubface with a FLAT LEFT WRIST, and have a LAG PRESSURE point.

So much WASTED man-hours.
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
I just had a thought about this since its in golf digest now and people are commenting about it...

so lets "say" that his one plane theory could be valid and you could get the left arm to be at the same "angle" as the shoulders.

Lets say you could do that.

-----

So you go and do that, now what? Those plane lines refer to what? They don't point to any real reference point. No ball, no plane line, nothing. just a couple of more lines.
 
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