As long as the hands are not interfered by the pivot motion, meaning the pivot does not alter the hands path to the ball- it is the hands assignment to strike the ball- you have a Hands controlled pivot that is properly TRAINED. I am always training mine, always trying to reduce it down to its simplest form. It seems when I improve on my power package delivery or change a component, my pivot need an adjustment.. I want my pivot to be efficient, powerful and yet unnoticed. But everyone is different. Stick with it, train and re-train- with and without a club.
Confessions is Gold
- Thread starter birdie_man
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It is true that the phrase "hand controled pivot" is a bit of a mystery. However, the understanding of how the body is controlled by the hands when bending down to pick up a coin isn't mysterious at all. With that said, then, am I going out on a limb here by saying that this is just one example of where a reader of TGM could get lost in the language used in the book and have a difficult time understanding what the book is intending to teach us? I'm going to assume that this isn't a stretch of imagination, and take it even further by asking the question, how come no one has rewritten TGM so that people could actually learn from it without needing some constant stream of communication with an AI? I hope I didn't break any unwritten rules here by suggesting that the book is less than perfect. It's just that every time I hear someone who really understands the concepts in the book explain something I think to myself, "Oh, that's what Homer meant in that chapter." Then I can't help but wonder, "why has no one written this in something that is closer to plain English?" I'm not even going to bother talking about the insane web of cross-referencing in just about every paragraph. I must have 50 sticky notes in my copy of the book where I'm just trying to get around the hassle of cross-referencing.
I think the book would get the (inter)national attention that it deserves if the masses could actually understand it.
This isn't a knock on the content of the book at all. I'm a devout TGM reader, and I'm going to continue, just like the rest of us, trying to learn from it.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
There is VERY LITTLE doubt that Mr. Kelley was no writer.
A genius, yeah....novelist.....ugh....no.
A genius, yeah....novelist.....ugh....no.
I feel (from mechanics
) your pain.The book was written to be a certain size- brevity was key. This is the blessing and curse of the book. That said- nobody has had a more difficult time understand the book than me. It took a single morning classroom discussion with Yoda to turn the some lights on and ever since it has been like discovering a new planet whenever I dive into some chapter.
The vocabulary used by Homer ends all ambiguity a student and teacher could have in discussion the swing. Open any golfing magazine and see that ambiguity reins supreme from one instructional page to another. Planes? Or is it a shift? Rotate the hands at impact. Don’t be handsy. Swing the arms. No, drive the legs. Set up over the right knee- don’t move the head. The sad part is this can be from the same instructor in the same lesson. It isn’t that they don’t know- it is they have no clear PRECISE language. Just a bunch of band-aid “feel” terms they are stuck teaching with. Learning from an instructor based in “feel” only is hit or miss.
Some idea for you Jimmy:
Open the book to chapter 7 and 10 and find something that of interest. Power package, Lag, whatever and let your curiosity</u> lead you around. Make a mental note of any cross reference but don’t go there right away. Stay in the section of interest. Enjoy the ride and let it incubate. Read the chapter 14. Read the prefix several times. Read in chapter two the Geometry of a Circle- Yoda starts there in every lesson. Later get to chapter 8, it has 12 sections, Yoda says it is 3 to Get Ready, 3 to get Up, 3 to get Down and 3 to get Around. Ask lots of question. Brian has a knack to translate this into visual terms but you will need to know where it comes from. Enjoy the ride. You will love the sound of Impact.
birdie_man
New
Good post man...you went to "The Mecca" (to see Yoda)?
One of "The Meccas" anyway.
(to see Yoda)? One of "The Meccas" anyway.
rwh
New
Jimmy,
The book is complex -- but it really does become more understandable the more effort you put in. No one -- Yoda, Brian or Chuck Evans included -- learned this material straight out of the book. They had mentors with whom they had hundreds of hours of conversation to amplify and explain what is contained in the book. Indeed, Mr. Kelley encouraged everyone to have a mentor -- an Authorized Instructor -- to lead them. Mr. Kelley acknowledged the complexity of the book in the Preface:
"So don’t turn away because the truth looks too complex. Stay with it a while and you’ll soon find it all very helpful and comfortable. After all, complexity is far more acceptable and workable than mystery is."
There are a lot of reasons why "The Golfing Machine" hasn't been re-written. It would be a daunting task -- you can't just re-write it for your pet procedure; you would have to re-write EVERYTHING. There are probably only a hand-full of people who are knowledgeable, talented and/or interested enough in doing it. Other problems include copyright issues that would have to be worked out.
In my opinion, re-writing the book is neither necessary nor feasible -- I think Yoda's posts from the first year would fill over 400 pages -- and he only scratched the surface. In my opinion, explaining and demonstrating the material on video is what the average golfer needs. Example: Brian explained and demonstrated the zero shift Right Forearm Pickup in about two minutes on a video, something that very few seemed to be understanding from the numerous posts on the subject.
The truth is that most of us really don't want to know everything in the book -- oh, there are a few "Kool-Aid Drinkers", but not many; rather, we just want to be able to get the stupid ball from tee to cup in a reasonable amount of strokes.
We really do tend to over-complicate it. I think Mike StLoc said it best: Once you get beyond the flat left wrist, straight plane line and clubhead lag -- everything else is pretty much window-dressing.
The book is complex -- but it really does become more understandable the more effort you put in. No one -- Yoda, Brian or Chuck Evans included -- learned this material straight out of the book. They had mentors with whom they had hundreds of hours of conversation to amplify and explain what is contained in the book. Indeed, Mr. Kelley encouraged everyone to have a mentor -- an Authorized Instructor -- to lead them. Mr. Kelley acknowledged the complexity of the book in the Preface:
"So don’t turn away because the truth looks too complex. Stay with it a while and you’ll soon find it all very helpful and comfortable. After all, complexity is far more acceptable and workable than mystery is."
There are a lot of reasons why "The Golfing Machine" hasn't been re-written. It would be a daunting task -- you can't just re-write it for your pet procedure; you would have to re-write EVERYTHING. There are probably only a hand-full of people who are knowledgeable, talented and/or interested enough in doing it. Other problems include copyright issues that would have to be worked out.
In my opinion, re-writing the book is neither necessary nor feasible -- I think Yoda's posts from the first year would fill over 400 pages -- and he only scratched the surface. In my opinion, explaining and demonstrating the material on video is what the average golfer needs. Example: Brian explained and demonstrated the zero shift Right Forearm Pickup in about two minutes on a video, something that very few seemed to be understanding from the numerous posts on the subject.
The truth is that most of us really don't want to know everything in the book -- oh, there are a few "Kool-Aid Drinkers", but not many; rather, we just want to be able to get the stupid ball from tee to cup in a reasonable amount of strokes.
We really do tend to over-complicate it. I think Mike StLoc said it best: Once you get beyond the flat left wrist, straight plane line and clubhead lag -- everything else is pretty much window-dressing.
birdie_man
New
I haven't found it too hard. It's hard to sort out all that info. sometimes...even when it's cleared up on the net...but that's just information overload. It's all good stuff...you just need to give it some time. I mean, how great is it to know that every thing you would want to know about the golf swing was written in this one little book?...and by someone who understood it prolly better than anyone who has ever lived.
I think the fact that the book is not so successful does not reflect so much on TGM but on the quick-fix, "not in for the long haul" mentality of most people.
I want to do it right, personally...and as soon as I got into reading this stuff, I just knew it was the ticket.
I think the fact that the book is not so successful does not reflect so much on TGM but on the quick-fix, "not in for the long haul" mentality of most people.
I want to do it right, personally...and as soon as I got into reading this stuff, I just knew it was the ticket.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Teletubby level?
lol
lol
Homer was a fine writer. He was very careful with the words he used so that each had their own meaning. It is a manual, presented as Homer says, "technical writing" in conversational style.
Anyone ever read the last three sentences in the preface:
“So don’t turn away because the truth looks to complex. Stay with it a while and you’ll soon find it all very helpful and comfortable. After all, complexity is far more acceptable and workable than mystery is.”
That’s clear, no?
Anyone ever read the last three sentences in the preface:
“So don’t turn away because the truth looks to complex. Stay with it a while and you’ll soon find it all very helpful and comfortable. After all, complexity is far more acceptable and workable than mystery is.”
That’s clear, no?
oztrainee
New
Hand controlled pivot,
Could we look at it in the following way?
http://www.par543.com/general/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21
Just look at the video
birdie_man
New
Brian...I want to clear this up in my head once and for all.
So....Pivot-Powered HCP.
If you use this, what is your first CONSCIOUS move away from the ball?....what do you FEEL first?
Shoulders turning?
(I understand that fact that even if it is a STT SOMETHING has to lift etc. etc. BTW.)
So....Pivot-Powered HCP.
If you use this, what is your first CONSCIOUS move away from the ball?....what do you FEEL first?
Shoulders turning?
(I understand that fact that even if it is a STT SOMETHING has to lift etc. etc. BTW.)
birdie_man
New
What's J.A.T. man?
You make a good point in that in almost anything we do we do it with out hands....but someone could also point out that a golf swing is not the same as picking up a pencil off the table. It isn't.
I don't want to debate about what is right or wrong or this or that...right now.
Thanks for trying to help but I'm looking for confirmation on what Pivot Powered HCP is first.
Then I'd be glad to get into this....I'm not taking any "side" in this debate yet BTW....believe me, I'm all about finding the truth (what ACTUALLY happens- what Homer would say about it). The "correct information" side of it.
But in the end I care about what works best for me....whether what I "feel" moves first is actual or not. i.e. if I hit the ball best "feeling" a turn of the shoulders to initiate my swing (even though one oculd say "SOMETHING has to lift" or w/e) then I'm likely gonna do that...after exploring all other options, of course.
-Paul
You make a good point in that in almost anything we do we do it with out hands....but someone could also point out that a golf swing is not the same as picking up a pencil off the table. It isn't.
I don't want to debate about what is right or wrong or this or that...right now.
Thanks for trying to help but I'm looking for confirmation on what Pivot Powered HCP is first.
Then I'd be glad to get into this....I'm not taking any "side" in this debate yet BTW....believe me, I'm all about finding the truth (what ACTUALLY happens- what Homer would say about it). The "correct information" side of it.
But in the end I care about what works best for me....whether what I "feel" moves first is actual or not. i.e. if I hit the ball best "feeling" a turn of the shoulders to initiate my swing (even though one oculd say "SOMETHING has to lift" or w/e) then I'm likely gonna do that...after exploring all other options, of course.
-Paul
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Birdie...use your pivot to "drag" the club away.
Whether that is turning your shoulders or withdrawing your right hip.
Whether that is turning your shoulders or withdrawing your right hip.
birdie_man
New
Ok cool man.....
The hands still seek their impact alignments tho....so it's not PC Hands.
Gotcha.
Pivot Powered HCP...
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