Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
YOUR BRAIN is "giving the orders" but YOUR BODY is supplying the power.
Confessions is Gold
- Thread starter birdie_man
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Ah yes, but you are in a batting stance, locked and loaded. You've got to get the golf club up, back and in, maintaining extensor action. All of the shoulder turn and body motion in the world will not get you up there with a bent right wrist and a flat, cocked left wrist. Ya gotta pull that left thumb back with the right hand. Passive hands puts slack in the swing. Just a thought.
Options, that is what TGM is all about.
Ben and many others teach a shoulder take-away.
Lynn and others now teach a right forearm take-away. Homer said that the RFT produces a take-away that maintains the integrity of the circle without any realignment or compensations.
Options and choices.
Hand control, pivot control? Homer did call the left shoulder take-away a pivot controlled action but didn’t care as long as you knew what was needed after you reached the top.
I like the idea of a “hands DESIGNED pivot” and let that big dumb body open the lanes for my hands to shine through.
Ben and many others teach a shoulder take-away.
Lynn and others now teach a right forearm take-away. Homer said that the RFT produces a take-away that maintains the integrity of the circle without any realignment or compensations.
Options and choices.
Hand control, pivot control? Homer did call the left shoulder take-away a pivot controlled action but didn’t care as long as you knew what was needed after you reached the top.
I like the idea of a “hands DESIGNED pivot” and let that big dumb body open the lanes for my hands to shine through.
BigBadDonkey
New
There are far more variables than RFT and STT.
Hogan had it right in his book in my opinion.
I feel my brain tells me hands first and I feel my hands go first, but the whole thing (shoulders, arms, torso, whatever) moves together and is co ordinated. Most shoulder turn takeawayers are just moving the whole thing together in my opinion, hands first 'cause it's instinctive.
If you move the shoulders first you willhave to, (think scienceinertia, weight) leave the clubhead behind in the grass for a fraction of a second, I don't see many pros do this.
Thinking hands first has to be the best way as it gives a hint of direction....really your just *pointing* your shoulder turn takeway (with your hands\brain)in the right spot, and that's the point.
Hogan had it right in his book in my opinion.
I feel my brain tells me hands first and I feel my hands go first, but the whole thing (shoulders, arms, torso, whatever) moves together and is co ordinated. Most shoulder turn takeawayers are just moving the whole thing together in my opinion, hands first 'cause it's instinctive.
If you move the shoulders first you willhave to, (think scienceinertia, weight) leave the clubhead behind in the grass for a fraction of a second, I don't see many pros do this.
Thinking hands first has to be the best way as it gives a hint of direction....really your just *pointing* your shoulder turn takeway (with your hands\brain)in the right spot, and that's the point.
BBD wrote,
"If you move the shoulders first you willhave to, (think scienceinertia, weight) leave the clubhead behind in the grass for a fraction of a second..."
This is true if you don't have enough structure tension in your arms/wrists. You sling the triangle back, up, and inward with shoulder rotation.
"If you move the shoulders first you willhave to, (think scienceinertia, weight) leave the clubhead behind in the grass for a fraction of a second..."
This is true if you don't have enough structure tension in your arms/wrists. You sling the triangle back, up, and inward with shoulder rotation.
birdie_man
New
Agreed. That would be a "true" or "classic" STT. Abruptly to the inside and off plane.
birdie_man
New
Tong(zilla) told me something that helped me...
He said to think of the shoulders (well, specifically the right one- the left is merely the place where your left arm connects to and where the chest connection is...that's PP#4 BTW) turning as adding the "inward" dimension to your swing.
Never had thought about it like that....very true.....very simple.
I also am leaning back to a STT for the long clubs....STT with a Manzella Neutral grip & full turn/roll......i.e. Hor. Hinging with a fade....i.e. almost impossible to hit it left (I pretty much only do it if the ball is too forward AND I'm standing too far away from it AND I hit it off the toe). Love it.
Weak grip + full turn/roll just doesn't seem to "jive" as well for me with a "pure" RFT as it does with a STT (even if it's done on the same plane- whichever plane that is).
He said to think of the shoulders (well, specifically the right one- the left is merely the place where your left arm connects to and where the chest connection is...that's PP#4 BTW) turning as adding the "inward" dimension to your swing.
Never had thought about it like that....very true.....very simple.
I also am leaning back to a STT for the long clubs....STT with a Manzella Neutral grip & full turn/roll......i.e. Hor. Hinging with a fade....i.e. almost impossible to hit it left (I pretty much only do it if the ball is too forward AND I'm standing too far away from it AND I hit it off the toe). Love it.
Weak grip + full turn/roll just doesn't seem to "jive" as well for me with a "pure" RFT as it does with a STT (even if it's done on the same plane- whichever plane that is).
birdie_man
New
BTW....might as well finish what I started...
I now am experimenting with RFT with my putter, wedges, and short irons....feels very good so far but I don't know yet if having "2 different swings" (long clubs/short clubs) will work. I've tried to keep them as similar as possible while still keeping the characteristics I want for the shots I'm gonna be hitting with them.
Anyway....same grip but w/o the full turn/roll- for lower traj. and increased crispness in short irons (I'd use it with long clubs but I get hooks unless I open the clubface tons at address- and I'd like to avoid that if possible...bugs me).
Anyhoo same deal....but right wrist bends STRAIGHT back and traces the plane line.....less swivel- feels like no swivel actually (and it's started with a RFT instead of STT.
Prolly looks like Duval or something (maybe not as much Double Shift?....not as flat?) but with a weaker grip.
-Paul
I now am experimenting with RFT with my putter, wedges, and short irons....feels very good so far but I don't know yet if having "2 different swings" (long clubs/short clubs) will work. I've tried to keep them as similar as possible while still keeping the characteristics I want for the shots I'm gonna be hitting with them.
Anyway....same grip but w/o the full turn/roll- for lower traj. and increased crispness in short irons (I'd use it with long clubs but I get hooks unless I open the clubface tons at address- and I'd like to avoid that if possible...bugs me).
Anyhoo same deal....but right wrist bends STRAIGHT back and traces the plane line.....less swivel- feels like no swivel actually (and it's started with a RFT instead of STT.
Prolly looks like Duval or something (maybe not as much Double Shift?....not as flat?) but with a weaker grip.
-Paul
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
All of you need to learn the The Jimmy Shoulder Turn Pickup Takeaway 
hehehe....something that is a combination of the STT and the RFP that keeps you perfectly on plane
hehehe....something that is a combination of the STT and the RFP that keeps you perfectly on plane
BigBadDonkey
New
quote:Originally posted by jim_0068
All of you need to learn the The Jimmy Shoulder Turn Pickup Takeaway
hehehe....something that is a combination of the STT and the RFP that keeps you perfectly on plane
Exactly.. with static head, ... just like Nicklaus , Woods, Toms.. etc.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Your head will still drift a little to the left and the right but it shouldn't be a huge issue.
birdie_man
New
Explain Jimbo! Plee-aze.
I'd like to hear about it.
I'd like to hear about it.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
In my "Pivot Wars" video (#4), I talk about how the blending of the two style can result in very good backswings.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
You need some plane lasers to practice this to get it right, the backswing i am talking about is very similar to Ernie Els as well.
Also i would HIGHLY HIGHLY suggest using lasers attached to a club AND NOT flashlights when practicing this mainly because it will be "new" and i believe you need to see how the clubhead moves to make it work.
Basically what you do is you START the backswing with a shoulder turn takeaway. The clubhead will follow the plane line for a few feet before it yanks it inside. The trick is BEFORE you let it get inside you simply fold the right elbow to bring it to the top.
If you go to Brady's site (redgoat.smugmug.com) and watch his backswing options section, watch how he describes the Ernie Els option. It is pretty much what i employ
Brian Manzella
Administrator
David's head moves and Nicklaus starts his well to the right (same thing).
tourdeep
New
All of you need to learn the The Jimmy Shoulder Turn Pickup Takeaway
hehehe....something that is a combination of the STT and the RFP that keeps you perfectly on plane
I bought the lazer light over six weeks ago. Using it, I've found the biggest challenge was not "tracing" the club head. Rather, it was the light from the butt end tracing the mat's "target line" on the backswing and also on the follow thru. Once I "got it", that is, coming from the inside while keeping the wedges intact, it became easier and easier. The image I try visualize is the side by side picture of Lynn and Ben hogan on Lynn's site as they are coming into impact. I match this visual as the butt end light traces into impact. Very frustrating intitally, and certainly transitioning this to the course probably remains an obstacle!
As I experimented with RFT and STT, at one point I thought it was a combo platter that worked best. The inital takeaway was "one piece", then allowing for the right side to take over (if I have explained this correctly) and bring the club to the top of the back swing. One of the movements that made this move easier (to get the butt end tracing correctly) was a feeling of earlier left wrist cock and right wrist bend (more so with right wrist) earlier than I normally would.
I don't know if what I experienced was the The Jimmy Shoulder Turn Pickup Takeaway, the bman's pivot wars blending, or maybe the tour deep turned pickup right shoulder fling ding, but I certainly gave conscious thought to this weeks ago and am back to trying the "three" takeaways once more.
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