downplane

[dale47]

Hi folks,
I've had a recent heart attack and am now just beginning to get to play the game again. I've decided to revamp my swing using the DO IT RIGHT VIDEO and some post's and articles from Brian's forum.Would you guys please explain swinging the right shoulder downplane at the transition. I've tried and usually I hit it a dead push and very low. The one drive i did catch is still going...lol...so I know there is something to this method. By the way there are few guys on this board I'd like to thank...Martee and Hue especially, every time I have asked these guys for help, they have been more willing to share their knowledge.

 

[MizunoJoe]

You may be overturning your shoulders on the backswing. The more vertical your arms swing, the less shoulder turn it takes to get the right shoulder on the downswing plane.

 

[ryantiff]

Joe,

Illusion!! Finally able to sense the right forearm takeaway today, it feels very steep going back, but when look at the video, the club is just tracing the club plane going up. Imagine before, I was always inside a little bit, but this was caused by just a little right forearm rotating inside!

However is this correct?
1. I feel my right shoulder not turning as much backward, therefore I think not as flat as before, this should due to the right forearm pick up right away. Will this contradict with as flat a shoulder backturn as possible?

2. Coming down, I am using the straight path, i.e using my left arm pulling straight down at the ball. It feels very outside but again from the video it is not.

3. Is this a single plane shift or zero shift? I don't feel a lot of second axis tilt or hip shifting to the left in coming down. Is this correct?

Right now I am practicing the above, plus using right forearm coming back, left arm coming down, such that won't let my right arm providing power coming down resulting the club going out.

Thanks in Advance.

 

[6bee1dee]

Without a club in your hand, set hands together in a grip. Use your right thumb and forefinger to pinch your left thumb and STRETCH PULL it to the top. This is extensor action applied at take away. TGM calls it Take UP. This is the perfect right forearm take away.
You will need to move the right hip back, like you are sitting on your back pocket. This moves the right shoulder back. Forget about the left shoulder.
You are turning around a fixed point- the head. Right should back, right forearm and hand at the top ready to delivery the clubhead. IMAGE: feels like holding a rope at both ends that is looped through a link set in the ground in front of you. Pull on the right and it moves the left side.
Set at top. If you swing - the pp3 is set under the shaft, you can pull with pp2 and the left arm to move your flying wedges through impact. Or if you hit - the pp3 is set behind the shaft and the right arm pushes in a straight line into the ball. It starts slow and builds fast because top speed has to be at impact. Don’t waste (lose) any arm speed by having it at the top.
Quick points, the right hand applies the power, the left arm is just string in both swing and hit. This is because, even as an inert right arm in the swing, it must never stop driving past the ball.

Coming back from Yoda's workshop, everyone fell in love with hitting.

 

[MizunoJoe]

ryan,

It feels steep to me also. There are advantages to a steep swing plane, such as hitting from bad lies(divots).

1. If you get the hands back, up, and in to the correct place, the right shoulder will be in the right place.

2. This is correct - a straight line delivery path to the inside of the ball.

3. Sounds like zero shift, which is prefered by no less than Yoda! If you are keeping your right shoulder back as required, you will have enough tilt. Many successfully play on the insides of the feet, while others get the left hip over the left foot.

You have built a 3-barrel swinging stroke. Now just learn to do a max delay snap release to increase power.

 

[MizunoJoe]

6b1d,

Wish I had been there. Were you hitting on full shots, or just chipping, putting, and short irons. If all shots, how was the distance compared to swinging procedures? Were you moving cross-line with hitting, and parallel with swinging?

I have to question the last sentence though. How can the right arm be inert in the swinging procedure, and "never stop driving past the ball"? Did you mean to say "never stops getting pulled past the ball"? In a swinging procedure, #1 must NOT be used. Yoda knows there is no such thing as 4-barrel swinging.

 

[DDL]

Even in a pure swing, the right arm is always driving, always extending, and the left arm is swinging. The right arm drive for swingers is passive and not an active right arm thrust as it is in hitting. Swingers also need throw out action from the driving right arm.

Great post 6b. Is the pinching of the right thumb and forefinger against the left thumb drive loading? I always wondered how drive loading was accomplished.

 

[MizunoJoe]

The right arm CAN be inert and UNDRIVEN in a pure swing. The throwout action, if it happens, is effected by the mass of the right arm, which gets straightened by the pulling forces. If #3 gets "used up" by super-uncocking, there won't be any throwout.

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

6b1d,

Wish I had been there. Were you hitting on full shots, or just chipping, putting, and short irons. If all shots, how was the distance compared to swinging procedures? Were you moving cross-line with hitting, and parallel with swinging?

I have to question the last sentence though. How can the right arm be inert in the swinging procedure, and "never stop driving past the ball"? Did you mean to say "never stops getting pulled past the ball"? In a swinging procedure, #1 must NOT be used. Yoda knows there is no such thing as 4-barrel swinging.

The humidity dropped and a cold front settled in for two days so we stayed on the range and hit balls til 8pm - a twelve hour day of enlightenment. We chipped, pitched, hit full shots and back to chipping.

Still learning to hit, I’m a true swinger which Homer call being lazy, LOL. Homer though hitting was “it.” He thought everyone would hit and go back to swinging for a change or if they just felt lazy. Hitting is cross-line, moving the club shaft held by the right bent wrist and forearm into the ball with a powerful shoulder trust. Like a stubborn lawn mower cord - up and down. Very powerful. Remember to leave pp3 behind the shaft, not under. Distance, for me the same because I’m still “finding my power center.” Everyone was thrilled with discovering hitting.

The right arm can of course be lazily moved through the ball, with little or no Acc#1. And Yoda proved to us that four barreling swinging doesn’t exist in “real life,” maybe on paper - but can as a hit procedure. You still need to smack the ball with a powerful bent right hand with both procedures. You don’t fight against centrifugal force in a swinging procedure by pushing the shaft cross-line but a strong driving right shoulder can work wonders.

Right forearm tracing, improved flying wedges, which I think is Homer’s greatest concept, eliminated my strong fade (hahah) and put the sweet stop on the ball virtually always. That means more distance with less work. Lay up? Not me.

 

[MizunoJoe]

6b1d,

Thanks for the summary - I was pretty sure Yoda would get you into the 4-barrel HITTING procedure with the driving right shoulder.

I am surprised by the distance with hitting, as I can never get hitting distance to match a 3-barrel max delay, snap release swinging procedure.

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by DDL

Even in a pure swing, the right arm is always driving, always extending, and the left arm is swinging. The right arm drive for swingers is passive and not an active right arm thrust as it is in hitting. Swingers also need throw out action from the driving right arm.

Great post 6b. Is the pinching of the right thumb and forefinger against the left thumb drive loading? I always wondered how drive loading was accomplished.

DDL, Drive loading? I don’t know. Sorry. No pinching in a real swing.
The pinching was only a DRILL to feel extensor action on the take-UP. I had always thought extensor action, 6-b-1-d, was associated with the aiming point, 6-e-2, movement toward the ball. The drill makes up feel the action away from the ball and beautifully sets the right forearm on plane at the top. Magic. Homer genius.

Drive loading needs to place the pp3 behind the shaft so you can thrust the shaft, along with pp1, the right hand against the left thumb and clubHEAD into the ball violently. The left hand will set the clubFACE, too late to do anything about directing it at that point. Trust Alignments.

 

[swingeasttowest]

GREAT POSTS!!!!!!!!. When I do the right forearm take away I use the third and forth fingers in my right hand to guide me........Is there anything incorrect in this method???....thanks rich

 

[6bee1dee]

quote:Originally posted by swingeasttowest

GREAT POSTS!!!!!!!!. When I do the right forearm take away I use the third and forth fingers in my right hand to guide me........Is there anything incorrect in this method???....thanks rich

You can see I'm not at work today.

Without getting into grip - a good image to see for the right forearm take-UP and start-DOWN is a stubborn lawn mower cord, up and down up and down up and down. It is that simply. Push with pp3 and pp1.

There is a current American Ryder cup player that uses this motion and in HS was nickname was "Up and Dump"

 

[DDL]

quote:Originally posted by 6bee1dee

quote:Originally posted by swingeasttowest

GREAT POSTS!!!!!!!!. When I do the right forearm take away I use the third and forth fingers in my right hand to guide me........Is there anything incorrect in this method???....thanks rich

You can see I'm not at work today.

Without getting into grip - a good image to see for the right forearm take-UP and start-DOWN is a stubborn lawn mower cord, up and down up and down up and down. It is that simply. Push with pp3 and pp1.

My 7 year old Lawn Boy , which takes about 20 attempts to start,is the perfect training aid for the right forearm pickup!!

 

[armourall]

quote:Originally posted by 6bee1dee

Coming back from Yoda's workshop, everyone fell in love with hitting.

6bee1dee,

I already have quite a fondness for Hitting, although I'm still trying to perfect it. Can you share more about what you learned about Zero Shift Hitting?

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

6b1d,

Thanks for the summary - I was pretty sure Yoda would get you into the 4-barrel HITTING procedure with the driving right shoulder. [Bold by Holenone.]

To accelerate the Clubhead from the Top, Swingers use Centrifugal Throwout Action and Hitters use Muscular Drive-Out Action. Accordingly, each uses the Right Shoulder in a very different way. Swingers use it to actively 'drive,' or accelerate, the essentially inert Left Arm (the #4 Power Accumulator) into Impact. Hitters use it to take up the initial slack during the Start Down and then as the 'equal and opposite force' backstop required to accelerate their Driving Right Arm (the #1 Power Accumulator) into Impact.

The Swinger's active Right Shoulder accelerates the Left Arm, and Centrifugal Force and its Throw-Out Action then powers the Clubhead. The Right Arm remains passive -- except for its Right Triceps Extensor Action and the #3 Pressure Point sensing and directing the Clubhead Lag -- and thus the Stroke remains Three-Barrel. In contrast, the Hitter's active Right Shoulder serves as the 'launching pad' for the Right Arm and its Muscular Drive-out Action that powers the Clubhead. Since the Right Arm then drives the entire Primary Lever Assembly (including the Left Arm), the Full-Power Hitting Stroke can be properly classified as Four-Barrel.

 

[MizunoJoe]

holenone,

Isn't it a valid choice to pull up with the left shoulder, rather than drive down with the right, in a 3-barrel swing? One time I asked Bill Glasson how he had just hit a 220 yd 3 iron approach onto a tree guarded green. He said he just pulled up with his left shoulder.

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

6b1d,

Thanks for the summary - I was pretty sure Yoda would get you into the 4-barrel HITTING procedure with the driving right shoulder. [Bold by Holenone.]

To accelerate the Clubhead from the Top, Swingers use Centrifugal Throwout Action and Hitters use Muscular Drive-Out Action. Accordingly, each uses the Right Shoulder in a very different way. Swingers use it to actively 'drive,' or accelerate, the essentially inert Left Arm (the #4 Power Accumulator) into Impact. Hitters use it to take up the initial slack during the Start Down and then as the 'equal and opposite force' backstop required to accelerate their Driving Right Arm (the #1 Power Accumulator) into Impact.

The Swinger's active Right Shoulder accelerates the Left Arm, and Centrifugal Force and its Throw-Out Action then powers the Clubhead. The Right Arm remains passive -- except for its Right Triceps Extensor Action and the #3 Pressure Point sensing and directing the Clubhead Lag -- and thus the Stroke remains Three-Barrel. In contrast, the Hitter's active Right Shoulder serves as the 'launching pad' for the Right Arm and its Muscular Drive-out Action that powers the Clubhead. Since the Right Arm then drives the entire Primary Lever Assembly (including the Left Arm), the Full-Power Hitting Stroke can be properly classified as Four-Barrel.

In the case of the swinger, that sounds more like a body control pivot rather than hands control to me?

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

6b1d,

Thanks for the summary - I was pretty sure Yoda would get you into the 4-barrel HITTING procedure with the driving right shoulder. [Bold by Holenone.]

To accelerate the Clubhead from the Top, Swingers use Centrifugal Throwout Action and Hitters use Muscular Drive-Out Action. Accordingly, each uses the Right Shoulder in a very different way. Swingers use it to actively 'drive,' or accelerate, the essentially inert Left Arm (the #4 Power Accumulator) into Impact. Hitters use it to take up the initial slack during the Start Down and then as the 'equal and opposite force' backstop required to accelerate their Driving Right Arm (the #1 Power Accumulator) into Impact.

The Swinger's active Right Shoulder accelerates the Left Arm, and Centrifugal Force and its Throw-Out Action then powers the Clubhead. The Right Arm remains passive -- except for its Right Triceps Extensor Action and the #3 Pressure Point sensing and directing the Clubhead Lag -- and thus the Stroke remains Three-Barrel. In contrast, the Hitter's active Right Shoulder serves as the 'launching pad' for the Right Arm and its Muscular Drive-out Action that powers the Clubhead. Since the Right Arm then drives the entire Primary Lever Assembly (including the Left Arm), the Full-Power Hitting Stroke can be properly classified as Four-Barrel.

In the case of the swinger, that sounds more like a body control pivot rather than hands control to me?

In both procedures, the Body follows the commands of the Hands, not vice versa. In everyday life, that's the way things work.

As an example, raise your hand. Did it go up in the air? Of course it did, and the reason it went up in the air is because you gave it an assignment. Now, how did the hand get up in the air? The shoulder lifted it, that's how. But...your hand controlled the motion, not the shoulder.

The same is true with Hand Controlled Pivots, both Hitting and Swinging. When I Hit, I tell my Hands to Drive the Club Out. When I Swing, I tell my Hands to Throw the Club Out. My trained Body -- including the Right Shoulder -- accomodates these distinctly different Actions perfectly. I don't give the Pivot a second thought; which, by the way, is why you find no Pivot Components listed in the Mechanical Checklist of 12-3-0.

 

[holenone]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

holenone,

Isn't it a valid choice to pull up with the left shoulder, rather than drive down with the right, in a 3-barrel swing? One time I asked Bill Glasson how he had just hit a 220 yd 3 iron approach onto a tree guarded green. He said he just pulled up with his left shoulder.

As the Right Shoulder Thrusts Down Plane, its Rotation returns the Left Shoulder to its higher Impact Fix Location. Since the Right Shoulder Turn Thrust (a Push) 'cranks the Gyroscope' and thereby creates the Swinger's Centrifugal Pull, it is not surprising that Mr. Glasson interpreted his Motion as a Pull of the Left Shoulder, rather than a Push of the Right. But...he described the effect and not the cause. The 'cause' was the Right Shoulder Turn Acceleration through Pressure Point #4.