downplane
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Understood Holenone.... I think that the issue of pivot control is one of 'intention' not of physical focus or effort on the hands or body.
Ideally, you have both body/hands in a unified smooth motion, with only the 'intention' of swinging the hands, feeling the hands - just as you would when pitching a baseball.
As a spoke, or as a rim, the hands are the focus, moving around the hub.
As with the pitch, the 'intention', the focus, is in the hands - but the 'sequence' is in the body/pivot moving to support the intention. The body still leads, but the hands are, as you say, the 'command post'.
I can understand Glasson's feel. I know that when I am swinging well, I feel the 'pull' in the left shoulder/back - in fact, I can feel the 'lag' move all the way up my left side, through the shoulder and arm and into the hands - heavy, smooth with tons of 'mass' and pure compression - just love that sound, the thin divots and the pure 'sizzle'
Ideally, you have both body/hands in a unified smooth motion, with only the 'intention' of swinging the hands, feeling the hands - just as you would when pitching a baseball.
As a spoke, or as a rim, the hands are the focus, moving around the hub.
As with the pitch, the 'intention', the focus, is in the hands - but the 'sequence' is in the body/pivot moving to support the intention. The body still leads, but the hands are, as you say, the 'command post'.
I can understand Glasson's feel. I know that when I am swinging well, I feel the 'pull' in the left shoulder/back - in fact, I can feel the 'lag' move all the way up my left side, through the shoulder and arm and into the hands - heavy, smooth with tons of 'mass' and pure compression - just love that sound, the thin divots and the pure 'sizzle'
I assume you mean "the shoulders [and Hands] operate quite independently of one another."
Indeed they do. On the Backstroke, for example, the Hands and the #3 Pressure Point travel always On the Inclined Plane. In contrast, the Right Shoulder can Turn only "as Flat as possible" to the Inclined Plane. Coordinated? Of course. Independent? Absolutely!
And that is the beauty of the way we were designed! Throw your car keys to the floor, and then reach down to pick them up. Did your hand move in a straight line? You bet it did! Did your right shoulder (assuming you are right-handed) move with your hand directly on the same inclined plane? Again, you bet! Did your body -- quite independently and without any separate instruction from you -- keep its balance and position itself perfectly to assist the hand in its assigned task? You know it did!
If you understand this simple example, you understand Hand Controlled Pivot. Use this knowledge for a lifetime of Better Golf!
EdZ,
As the 'ImageMeister,' you are the best! I applaud that approach as a means of converting correct Golf Stroke Mechanics into describable sensations. And the 'Wheel Rim' Swinging Hands Image is fine for Swinging. However...
When you Hit, you Drive! You don't Swing your Right Hand around a 'Hub.' you Thrust it in a straight line! And for Straightaway Flight with your Middle and Short Irons, the Ball is best positioned well up the Plane from Low Point. That means 'Good-bye' thin divots and 'Hello' serious turf!
Driving the Lag into the Ground -- Hitting or Swinging -- and watching the Turf fly and the Ball streak for the Flag is fun.
A greenskeeper's worst nightmare, of course, but fun! Best of all -- especially with the Middle and Short Irons and with the Ball positioned for Straightaway Flight, i.e., no Aiming Point Manipulation -- it is geometrically correct.
As taught, Homer called swinging lazy. You can close your eyes and use it as a change of pace late in a round or something, its that simply to do. But hitting, hitting excited everyone at the workshop. It is as violent an action as there is in recreational sport. I'm training those lazy muscles of mine to order up the "crunch and turf." Glad I have stiff shafts on my irons, too.
"When I Swing, I tell my Hands to Throw the Club Out. My trained Body -- including the Right Shoulder -- accomodates these distinctly different Actions perfectly. I don't give the Pivot a second thought"
From the top, I tell my brain to pull the left arm only (leave the right, no power or assist, therefore able to maintain the right hand bend and therefore must need right shoulder down) such that the hand directly straight to the ball. The video shows my shoulder down, left arm etc.. Therefore I understand the above comments and thought this should be hand controlled pivot since that what I focus on the path of the hand and I don't focus on other parts.
"The Swinger's active Right Shoulder accelerates the Left Arm, and Centrifugal Force and its Throw-Out Action then powers the Clubhead."
The above statements make me think to work on the right shoulder again. Please note that I am still learning so I can only focus one move at a time. Before I do that I just wonder should I work on the right shoulder or still concentrate on the left hand path only.
Thanks.
From the top, I tell my brain to pull the left arm only (leave the right, no power or assist, therefore able to maintain the right hand bend and therefore must need right shoulder down) such that the hand directly straight to the ball. The video shows my shoulder down, left arm etc.. Therefore I understand the above comments and thought this should be hand controlled pivot since that what I focus on the path of the hand and I don't focus on other parts.
"The Swinger's active Right Shoulder accelerates the Left Arm, and Centrifugal Force and its Throw-Out Action then powers the Clubhead."
The above statements make me think to work on the right shoulder again. Please note that I am still learning so I can only focus one move at a time. Before I do that I just wonder should I work on the right shoulder or still concentrate on the left hand path only.
Thanks.
I don't feel the active right shoulder thrust or cranking up the gyroscope. At transition, I feel a stretching of my left arm across my chest and pull on pp2. I slow down the transition enough so I can also feel the weight of the clubhead on pp3....subtle feeling, not nearly as stong as the other stretches and pulls I am feeling.
Feels like my left shoulder and arm and hand is doing the pulling.My left arm does not feel inert. I trust it that mechanically, even though it feels like a left side pull, it is actually a right shoulder thrust and left arm blast off the chest. This is while I am concentrating on the path of the hands , aiming it towards the ball with my pivot.
Whenever I try to consciously thrust my right shoulder downward, everything gets all screwed up.
Feels like my left shoulder and arm and hand is doing the pulling.My left arm does not feel inert. I trust it that mechanically, even though it feels like a left side pull, it is actually a right shoulder thrust and left arm blast off the chest. This is while I am concentrating on the path of the hands , aiming it towards the ball with my pivot.
Whenever I try to consciously thrust my right shoulder downward, everything gets all screwed up.
holen1,
No, I mean that the left and right shoulder move independently. There are ways to "tie them together", such as imagining a rod joining the tops of the arms. Some players squeeze the upper arm joints toward one another to unite them so that a precise move down of the right will produce the same precise move upward of the left. Some players are put together "more tightly" than others, which naturally tie their shoulders together better than others who have "looser joints". On the other hand, I've seen tour swings in which the shoulders turn back flat, and then to complete the backswing the right shoulder is raised straight up independently of the left.
No, I mean that the left and right shoulder move independently. There are ways to "tie them together", such as imagining a rod joining the tops of the arms. Some players squeeze the upper arm joints toward one another to unite them so that a precise move down of the right will produce the same precise move upward of the left. Some players are put together "more tightly" than others, which naturally tie their shoulders together better than others who have "looser joints". On the other hand, I've seen tour swings in which the shoulders turn back flat, and then to complete the backswing the right shoulder is raised straight up independently of the left.
I have swing procedures which DO NOT use right shoulder thrust to "crank the gyroscope". It is possible to pull down the hands independently of the shoulders, and then as the hands near the release point, pull up with the entire left side. Of course, the right shoulder drops, but only because it is not allowed to go out, and is not the CAUSITIVE ACTION, but is a REACTION to the left shoulder pulling up.
quote:Originally posted by holenone
EdZ,
As the 'ImageMeister,' you are the best! I applaud that approach as a means of converting correct Golf Stroke Mechanics into describable sensations. And the 'Wheel Rim' Swinging Hands Image is fine for Swinging. However...
When you Hit, you Drive! You don't Swing your Right Hand around a 'Hub.' you Thrust it in a straight line! And for Straightaway Flight with your Middle and Short Irons, the Ball is best positioned well up the Plane from Low Point. That means 'Good-bye' thin divots and 'Hello' serious turf!
Driving the Lag into the Ground -- Hitting or Swinging -- and watching the Turf fly and the Ball streak for the Flag is fun.
Best of all -- especially with the Middle and Short Irons and with the Ball positioned for Straightaway Flight, i.e., no Aiming Point Manipulation -- it is geometrically correct.
Understood... geometrically correct, more margin for error because you are 'farther way from lowpoint' (in other words, farther from throw away) - I would think this would make distance/trajectory control a bit more difficult however unless you are 'very' precise about ball position and angle of attack.
It seems to me that swinging would hold up better under pressure, and over time, less to "do" - just setup the machine and let it go.
It is true that Swinging requires much less conscious control than Hitting, especially during the learning process. Hence Homer's words: "You can practically sleep and Swing."
It is also true that, as with Swinging, the Hitter's Impact is indeed a violent collision of Clubface and Ball. However, also as with Swinging, the Motion that produces that violence is 'very deliberate, positive and heavy' (3-F-6).
In drill and on the practice tee, train your Right Shoulder to move back to the Plane on the Backstroke and down the Plane on the Downstroke. Then, immediately return control of your procedure to your Hands.
In that regard, after your Swinger's Drag Load -- Pulling the Butt End of the Club toward the Plane Line to Start Down -- focus on your directing your now-Loaded Right Forefinger #3 Pressure Point -- not the Left Hand -- down the Straight Line Delivery Path. As you maintain this Straight Line Delivery of the Clubhead Lag Pressure, allow your Left Wrist to Uncock and then your Left Hand to Roll.
There is Magic in the Swinger's Centrifugal Release Sequence. Master these Mechanics, and it will be yours.
What you are feeling is the Downstroke Release Sequence of 6-M-1. If your 'conscious Thrust' of the Right Shoulder interrupts that Sequence, trouble is sure to follow. However, in its proper order and under the Control of the Hands, Turning the Right Shoulder 'directly toward the Ball' is a Swing Thought that works.
I know for a fact that it won at least one United States Open Championship.
Proper Power Package structure is achieved in two ways:
(1) Using Extensor Action to keep both Arms as straight as the Checkrein Action allows;
(2) Taking the 'wobble' out of the Shoulders by keeping them forward, using Pectoral Action if necessary.
Players who choose to accomplish the above by forcing the Upper Arms to the Chest add nothing to Power Package rigidity. In fact, such action can actually inhibit the proper Extensor Action, i.e., the required stretching of the Left Arm and Shaft by the Right Arm. They also risk inhibiting the Hands and thus their assignment of maintaining the essential Stroke Geometry. Finally, they will almost certainly force the Elbows to rotate inward and closer to each other and contort the natural position of the Arms. Ironically, this will disrupt the all-important Flying Wedge Alignments that their 'precise up and down' Shoulder Motions are seeking to accelerate and support.
That was not Homer Kelley's conclusion. Enjoy the exact words of The Master:
"I think Hitting is going to become far, far more popular than Swinging with the real blood-thirsty golfers, the money-hungry golfers. They're going to go to Hitting because it is...they have total control; much better finesse; more positive control of Power; and less total body involvement."
"It is far more difficult to learn, but far easier to execute when you get it. Oh, it's so simple! Nothing ever happens! Nothing ever gets out of line! You just take it up and come down! And you can slam it as hard as you want to if you stayed with this Right Forearm alignment."
"And you'll find all of a sudden you don't have to Throw the Club. Just come down any speed you want and it just comes right through. And not having to 'Rotate the Plane Lines' [Ed: to curve the Ball.] -- gee, that's a tremendous advantage. But, it is harder to learn, but lots easier to execute once you've learned it. Much more individual. You feel like you're controlling every little ingredient."
"I think it's great."
Not to jump on your toes, Master Yoda. Homer's voice has been recorded from Master classes and the like. If I can continue because this is the part I like. Paraphrasing Mr. Kelley... “because of hitting, golf will become so easy, we will be playing call shot.”
Now that’s how much confidence Homer had in the hitting stroke.
Now that’s how much confidence Homer had in the hitting stroke.
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